What Missionary Kids Wish You Knew About Their Faith and Identity with Michéle Phoenix

What are missionary kids really carrying—and what can adults do to help lighten the load? From the pressure to perform, to the fear of disappointing others, MKs often carry invisible expectations they didn’t choose and can’t always name. These burdens can shape everything from their identity to their view of God.

In this conversation, we explore the emotional and spiritual weight many missionary kids carry and what it means to support them with greater empathy, patience, and grace. Our guest is Michèle Phoenix—author of Pieces of Purple, MK advocate, and lifelong TCK. Drawing from decades of personal experience and professional work with MKs, Michèle unpacks some of the most misunderstood parts of the MK journey and offers practical insight for families and leaders alike.

Whether you’re raising an MK, mentoring one, or unpacking your own experience growing up between worlds, this episode offers a compassionate lens and helpful tools for the journey.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Meet Michéle Phoenix
• 0:45 Michéle Phoenix’s Insights on Missionary Kids
• 4:44 The Pressure of Shoulds on Missionary Kids
• 14:31 Understanding the Purple People Analogy
• 18:34 Navigating Cultural Differences and Values
• 23:07 Deconstruction of Faith in Missionary Kids
• 25:03 Understanding Deconstruction and Unbundling
• 25:49 The Emotional Journey of Questioning Faith
• 26:38 Reevaluating Core Beliefs
• 29:11 The Importance of Addressing Injustice
• 31:49 Reasons for Deconstructing Faith
• 39:23 Encouragement for Adults of Influence
• 42:50 Conclusion and Resources

Transcript

Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to this episode of the Modern Day Missionaries podcast. Today, we take a deep look at missionary kids or missionary kids, as Michèle Phoenix describes them. She also uses the term purple people, which I love. Michèle is an MK, she's A TCK, and she's worked with MKS for decades. She brings in some fascinating perspectives that we've never talked about before on the podcast.

Today, we talk about MKs and the deconstruction of their faith. We talk about some of the heaviest things that they carry and how that impacts them. And we look at how the adults influence their lives, that's us, and can create spaces for them to flourish in their faith and in all areas of their lives. So let's jump into today's conversation with Michèle Phoenix.

Hey, Michelle, welcome to the podcast today. We are so pleased to have you.

Michèle Phoenix: Thank you. I love being here and with your listeners. Thanks for the invitation.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. And so I've been reading your new book, "Pieces of Purple". I love what it says, the greatness, grit, and grace of growing up, MK. So you have like a writer's heart. It's a beautiful read, and it's very real and very honest. And one thing I noticed, Michelle, is that you like to use the term missionary kid instead of missionary kid. I love to hear about the difference between those two terms and how you find that first one to be more helpful to MKs.

Michèle Phoenix: I'm really consistent about that, too. I always say missionary kids, in part because I am a missionary's kid, and I find that the term missionary kids assigns to them a label that belongs to their parents, that they may want to shoulder themselves or that they may not want to. So it seems like there's a pressure attached to being called a missionary kid, especially to those who are already in some way resentful that they're living a life they didn't choose to carry the label they didn't choose as well, can feel like an extra piece of burden, maybe on some MKs, not all MKs. So, to err on the side of caution, I call them the children of missionaries, and then they can decide what they do with their lives and how it may or may not reflect their parents' ministry.

Stephanie Gutierrez: And that's really thoughtful, and I think it gives those individuals a sense of autonomy too, to choose how much they want to identify with their parents calling or them. And I know for a lot of missionary families, I've talked to them, you know that our missionary family as well, it's this whole, you wanna draw your kids into the calling and make it your family.

And yet it might not always feel that way to you like. 

Okay, so that is actually really thoughtful, Michelle, because I think it gives those individuals, those young people, the chance to identify with their parents' calling or not. 

And, as parents, you want to pull your kids in. You want it to feel like this is our calling as a family. What are ways that parents can pull kids in and help them feel like it's our family calling, and still respect that sense of autonomy where they can kind of choose what that experience is for them?

Michèle Phoenix: I think it has to do with just sensitivity and going slowly. So, offering small aspects of the ministry that the children can participate in if they seem to thrive in it, if it gives them life, adds some more aspects to it, some more responsibility, which is age-appropriate, not assuming that the children are not necessarily as on board with being MKs as the parents are with being missionaries, but are willing to actually be active participants in what the parents are doing. 

And then I think it's really important for parents to allow their MKs to witness and even participate in different kinds of quote-unquote jobs because so many MKs only know the missionary life, and they can't imagine a nine-to-five job in a more defined sector. So I love when kids, whether they're on HMA or whether it's on the field, if they're allowed to kind of step into different roles that might, they might not even imagine or possible, that might feel like a better fit than ministry to them and still participate with their parents because the whole family is there, but also have a track that feels more like them then this shoe that they have to jam their foot into by virtue of their parents choosing the lifestyle they did?

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Okay. And for those who don't know what HMA is, I'm even guessing, is that a home ministry assignment?

Michèle Phoenix: Well done. Yes. Used to be called furlough, but that sounded too much like a vacation. So we don't call it furlough anymore.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay. So what you were just saying a minute ago made me think of this section that you have in the book where you talk about “the tyranny of shoulds,” that pressure that comes down on MKs. Okay. And you, and you listed them out in here, the top five: I should behave well at all times, I should be exemplary in every way, I should not cause my parents more stress or bother them with my issues, I should have mature faith, I should serve others until I have nothing left to give. That's heavy stuff. 

Michèle Phoenix: Yes. Right? Yes, and I was actually at an adult Third Culture Kid conference in the state of Georgia. I brought up the shoulds, and the first thing I noticed was that their eyes lit up when they realized there's a term for this. I've been feeling this, some of them for 40 or 50 years.

And it's called “The Shoulds.” I never knew there was a word to define it. And then we had two whiteboards at the front of the class, and I asked them to just kind of popcorn their shoulds, the ones they still felt or remembered from their childhood. And we filled those two whiteboards in about 10 minutes with all of the shoulds. And they're not just the big ones that you just mentioned, they're things like, I should speak multiple languages, I should always be happy with the moves my parents make, I should be compelling to our supporters and our ministry partners when we're on HMA or furlough. All of these obligations they feel are heaped on their shoulders, and it's not like anybody necessarily sits them down and says, Here's your list of shoulds.

It's an assumption that their parents and their sending agency and churches back in their passport culture, and even the people that they're there to serve, that all of these people expect perfection from them spiritually, emotionally, academically, behaviorally, when they're six or seven years old, and they live weighed down because of that, they live with this constant feeling of failure because nobody can live up to that kind of shoulds. 

And I think it's important to note the difference between a should and an instruction because, of course, there will be family values, of course, there will be faith-related values that we want our children to grow up in, but an instruction understands discipleship; it allows for trial and error, and we'll try again. And this is the end goal, and we're gonna love you through it, and we're gonna work together. The should is a one-and-done kind of thing. This is the expectation we have of you. If you fail once you bring shame on yourself, on your family, on their ministry, and on God.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Wow. Not only is there the failure, but there's the weight of having let all of these sectors down by being an 8-year-old who is still imperfect.

Oh gosh. Okay. That's such an important distinction you just made between those kinds of rules, guidelines, and instructions. We have to grow into those, but to grow into these shoulds, these expectations. 

I know what you're talking about. Like, I'm even thinking about a PK, so I'm a pastor’s kid, and then those who are MKs. It's just like it amplifies its lens on you. I dunno, it just feels wider and harder, and the two parents can work against these shoulds, like train their kids up? Well, because I mean, parents are feeling pressure too. Your kids have to be a certain way, or you get judged. How can they not transfer that stress pressure to their kids?

Michèle Phoenix: Well, and the fact is, the Bible is a book of instructions. And so sometimes in our heads of our kids, we even frame the Bible as a list of shoulds. And if you don't live up to the Bible's expectations, then again you… And therefore, we, by consequence, are a failure. I think because the shoulds are unspoken, there's something that MKs assume is being heaped on them.

The counter to that needs to be spoken, and it needs to be spoken repeatedly and loudly with words kids understand. So not just the parents, but educators of MKs and the missionary community need to get better at saying, you know what? That wasn't great, but we understand that you're a kid and that you're still growing, and we're gonna keep working on this together.

In those times, parents really need to make it very clear that this does not rest on their shoulders. The outcome of our support raising does not rest on your shoulders. That's one of the shoulds that I felt most strongly growing up. I felt like it was up to me to make the old ladies cry when I sang my song at the end of this service. And if people didn't start supporting us, I hadn't done well enough. I needed to do better to pull those heartstrings, which is so cynical. But for a lot of MKs, we feel like the life as we know it, wherever it is that our parents serve, that we love, where we have a home, where we have friends, if we don't perform well enough, then we might not get to go back there. And so we take it on ourselves to determine the outcome by how well we perform. The shoulds that are unspoken and need to be verbally contradicted by the people that we trust the most.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh, this is such heavy stuff for kids to carry.

Michèle Phoenix: Yes. And they don't even know they're carrying it.

Stephanie Gutierrez: That's what I was gonna say. It's subconscious, like it's completely behind-the-scenes type stuff.

Michèle Phoenix: And if that failure is all over your subconscious all the time, then it's gonna apply to other areas of life as well. You're gonna enter new spaces and new maybe responsibilities or new circles of friends with failure kind of stamped at the back of your mind. I'm walking in as a failure. So your self-esteem, your expectation of support or love, is affected by failure to live up to the shoulds as well.

Stephanie Gutierrez: And I love that you identified it as should, should, because I hate the word should. I hate it because it is the heaviest, most joy-stripping word. Could we use it? My husband and I, you know, teach a lot on marriage, and when things become a should in marriage, it destroys it. Like you think about romantic gestures, like it's good to bring your spouse a kind gift sometimes, or to say some nice words, or to make some type of gesture. But the second you're like, you should do that, it strips all the joy from it. So, translating that back, even to kids, it's good to obey the Lord. It's good to be a blessing to others. There are so many things. There's goodness inherent in all of these things, but the shouldness of them just makes them so awful for kids, for adults, for anybody.

Michèle Phoenix: And it inhibits spiritual formation, healthy spiritual formation. If the instructions in the Bible and the example of Jesus in the Bible aren't for our good and aren't for our life to flourish more and be better citizens, and to be able to impact other people around us and to be able to bring joy and hope, and faith into the world as we live in it instead it is you have to do this or else. Then we're not learning spiritual values and the payoff of living the wholesome payoff of living according to the Bible and the Bible's instructions. We're just trying to check boxes and not bring shame on ourselves, our family, their ministry, and God.

Stephanie Gutierrez: What a sad and lonely way to live, and yet we've all done it in certain areas. I mean, for all of our listeners, I would encourage you to think right now, what are the shoulds in your life? Where might those come from? What just nags you in the morning, or what are the ones that don't seem that big? Have you had it since childhood? And there is something with digging into those and really holding them up to the light and saying, what truth is there in this? Is this life-giving?

Michèle Phoenix: The other question I would have them consider is, how are you responding to your own failure to the shoulds that you might be sensing? Because if we can't give ourselves grace for not having a continuum of growth and discipleship, then our children are watching and assuming that they shouldn't get grace for their failures either. So the adults of influence in their lives are embodying either grace or shame.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Ooh, that's good. That's good. So yes, adults, what are. What do those look like for you? How are you modeling that to the kids in your life, and then what might be a great conversation to have with your kids if they're old enough to even be able to figure that out? Are there some kids for you in your life? Are you feeling that from us? How can we look at that differently so it feels like an invitation?

Michèle Phoenix: Yeah. Ooh, this is good. We stayed here longer than I thought we would, and I love that. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: I did wanna ask, so the title of the book is "Pieces of Purple," and I wanna let you unpack that, as we just got to purple. Because I thought that was beautiful.

Michèle Phoenix: Yeah. And the irony is there's not a stitch of purple on the cover of the book because I didn't wanna be too on the nose about it. After all, it's an illustration, it's not an actual color. This was actually developed by MTI. If your listeners don't know about missionary training, is it international or an institute? I actually can't remember right now. In Colorado Springs, they do debriefings with missionary families. They're fantastic at what they do, but they developed this analogy to help parents understand how their children are different from them, and how big is that gap?

I don't think that missionary parents, even those who have lived cross-culturally for 20 or 30 years, will ever understand what it means to be MK, to have grown up cross-culturally during those formative years, which is right there in the definition of TCK. So, really briefly, the illustration is, and I use this when I go to elementary schools overseas and speak with children, and I'm trying to convince them that it's okay and good for you to tell your parents what you're experiencing, because they might not organically get it without you using words. So I give a jar to one of the children in the class, and I pour some red beets into it. And I say, this is how mom and dad experience being cross-cultural. So this is planet red, this is where they grew up, this is where they're anchored in their identity. And then we pour blue beads into the same jar, and I ask the child to shake it up, and he or she shakes it up. I say this is the way mom and dad experience being cross-cultural because when they add that other planet, planet blue, and they live there for a while, they are in their cultural makeup.

So they're distinct, distinguishable, there's clarity. You can separate them according to color. You know what belongs in what on what planet. With MKs, they experience that again because of their formative years, completely differently. So I give the same child two balls of Play-Doh, red Play-Doh, blue Play-Doh, and have him or her mush them, and they end up with this purple, and it's a beautiful and complex and complicated and rich, and irreplaceable purple. For each MK, it's gonna be a slightly different shade because of what they bring to their understanding of life and cross it. 

But parents who are red bead, blue bead, and assume their children are processing their lives between planets the same way they are. They do not understand how absorbent the purple is. So the children who don't have the clarity are not gonna put the cultural, social, spiritual inputs they're receiving through a clear grid like parents can. They're just gonna absorb it. It's gonna be part of their identity, and that can cause some interesting situations when parents see things coming out of their children, either behaviorally or verbally. That doesn't seem to reflect the family, and they don't understand that it's just something that was absorbed into the purple and that they didn't put through a grid. And the parents then are the ones who can help them specifically consider these few items they're seeing so that their children can get some clarity inside the complexity of their purple.

Stephanie Gutierrez: That is so good. I love the way that you broke that down. I mean, I think most people are visual to some degree. When you can get an analogy or something to help you see clearly, it just helps things make sense. And as an adult who moved overseas as an adult, I'm a bead person. To think about my husband, who grew up as an MK, and then my daughters, they're Play-Doh people.

And I'm high on empathy, but I'm always looking to get more. And I'm looking forward to sitting down with them and having that analogy to see how we see things differently. And you give some really great analogies in the book. When you have taught this about how a parent can look at a child and go, How do you not see that this goes against our family values? And point, like, well, they just absorbed that in their school or in their environment or with their friends without realizing they were. What would be some common examples of that that you've seen?

Michèle Phoenix: Well, for my own life, looking back at growing up as an MK in France, which is a very strong cultural component in me grew up in the French school systems, where I actually saw this, I talked for 20 years at Black Forest Academy. So I've seen a lot of MK students come through my life as well, and I've seen it in some of them. Cheating was great. Cheating was kind of your entry into social significance in the classroom. So the best cheaters were recognized. The teachers kind of reluctantly respected the best cheaters because we were nifty enough to get away with it. And I really did think that this was a way to establish yourself in a new cultural environment.

And I got really good, I hate to say this as a missionary, I was so good at cheating. And then I moved to an MK school in Germany, and it was a whole new social group to me. And I thought, well, how can I establish myself? And I thought, I'll cheat because this is what I had absorbed in those formative years. Bible test, cheated, I mean everything up the sleeve and in the shoe and in the pencil case, and I know of all things. 10 minutes later, I'm sitting in the principal's office because I got out of there and told all my friends about it and had no idea that, I mean, I knew the Bible talks about cheating, but it's clearly okay, because this is what I experienced.

And the same is true, if you have missionary parents listening who are in environments where some of the moral standards are different than your own, you need to be aware that that is being absorbed without the clarity of red and blue bead. People and your children might not know that they're supposed to question it.

We had a president, a French president who died, and it was covered on state media in Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, and his wife and daughter were on one side in the front row, and his mistress and illegitimate daughter were on the other side in the front row, and it was covered without anybody, being bothered by it because, of course, a man of influence and wealth would have a woman and a child on the side, and nobody said anything. And my parents didn't say, Oh, well, you know, in our family values or in our faith values, this would not be okay. It was just the way the culture is. And the absorbent MK is just going to draw that into his or her purple.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Or I even think about, like, in so many cultures, where bribing the police. I mean, it was kind of factored in as a part of doing business in I know it's even more so in other cultures; it was this whole thing. Like a parent too, you're like, Oh my gosh, how do we get things done, and what does the Bible say, and how do we to the culture, but also how do we get this done? I mean, it's so confusing when you person you realize your kids are observing it. How do I teach them what's right, and also, I mean, things just become grayer. It's, you hate to say it, but for a lot of it just does, doesn't mean that things suddenly become right, go from sin to not being sin, but it gets confusing.

Michèle Phoenix: Yeah. You're making difficult choices. That gets really delicate. I do reentry seminars in Canada in the summer, and we bring police officers in one day a week. Specifically for this reason, because they need to know the difference between Canadian law and order values and what they grew up with. And one time it was question and answer time with these two police officers and a child. A TCK put up his hand and said, So, how much does it take to get out of a traffic stop in Canada, like $50, or a hundred dollars? And you should have seen the face. It was brilliant.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh my gosh. Because yes, you're like, well, if you don’t take them up on the bribe, then you have to at the police station for six hours.

Michèle Phoenix: Yes. And the TCK motto is: Be prepared always. So, how much do I have to have in my wallet? Police officer?

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. I mean, it's such a good question. My word. Yeah. And that's like a whole, even another topic for another day. 

So what you said there is so relatable because I think we've all been through that in some shape or form, that whole like and also respecting the culture, as not shaming a culture as you're a kid,  and trying to navigate through all.

And speaking of values and all that, let's transition into faith here. Because you had a section in there about deconstruction that I thought was really powerful. Talk for a second about the faith of MKs. 

Michèle Phoenix: Yeah. Oh, it's a huge, huge topic. A couple of weeks ago, maybe three or four weeks ago, I was in Kenya at Riff Valley Academy and spoke on the topic of deconstruction with their teenagers, with their high school students. And it validated to me what a current concern it is, and ought to be for a lot of TCKs in whatever context they're in.

So, the problem arises, and I don't wanna sound cynical about this, but the problem arises when faith becomes the family's job or the industry the family is involved in. It's what they have to do. It's the tasks, it's the meeting, the deadlines, it's the measurable outcomes that the family is looking for, which is a little bit cynical, because I'm not sure we should have to measure outcomes when we're doing ministry in all cases.

 So the kids are watching this play out there, usually as a family understanding of what faith is, but at some point, they start to wonder what faith is truly supposed to be. Is it supposed to be a job, or what is the core of the faith? My family is preaching. And I found that TKs will enter into deconstruction. So it's kind of a buzzword that has a negative overtone to it in a lot of contexts. I find it hopeful because for me, the MKs who enter into deconstruction or reconsidering the faith they grew up with are looking for answers. Doubt is stagnant. Doubt just sits there, and questions deconstruction looks for something.

So I think that accentuates the importance of the adults of influence in the lives of MKs to help guide them and interact with them along this route. Josh Packard is a sociologist who's done a lot of research on this, and he calls deconstruction unbundling, which is a helpful definition to me, and he compares it to when you go into T-Mobile or whatever cell phone store and all you want is a cell phone plan and you come out with your cell phone plan and three months of free Apple TV and a gift card to Amazon and whatever else they're gonna give you. And for a lot of TKs, that's how they're viewing their faith. What, where is this cell phone plan in all of this other stuff that has gotten attached to it, either in the world of ministry or in the cultural world? Beyond that, in the political world, in the philosophical world, in the educational world, what is the core true meaning of faith?

And some MKs will start to engage with that question. What is scary to adults who are observing it happening is that the impetus for them to push through, the shoulds to push through, you should be loyal to your family's faith. You should never question; you should be a spiritual superstar at age nine. What's difficult is that for them to push through that, they're gonna have to grab another stronger emotion than just curiosity or doubt. So they might get angry. They might grab rebellion, they might grab rejection, and initially, that's all the parents and the community are gonna see is this big negative emotion.

But that is what is allowing them to pass over the threshold into honestly asking questions about a faith that might feel inherited to them.

Stephanie Gutierrez: That's good. You know, there's an analogy that was helpful for me. I think when I kind of went through my own, I dunno that it was really deconstruction, but figuring out what was true about faith. You could have said it was what I always envisioned; it was kind of a bullseye with three circles. The way that I grew up, I think the way I was taught a lot of times in Sunday school or in school, or church, is I had this kind of bloated center where you put the dogma at the center, like your core beliefs, like: What is a Christian? I had fit everything else in there. I like everything to belong. 

And I would say, if you look at the other circles, kind of the circle outside of that, what might be really important beliefs. It might be the gifts of the spirit, and do like speaking in tongues, or that are very important, not dogma. That outer circle would be like opinions, you know, is dancing okay? A drink of alcohol, like those things you know, but I grew up with those things. You know, like, everybody taught me that way. That's how I internalized it. So own that. That's it. 

I formed my faith was kind of just looking at that circle and going, okay, just Jesus belongs in here, all the rest of this stuff. I gotta like take it all out for a it out of the bucket, all down on the floor, and go, okay, which circle does this belong in? Does this belong believe in this belief? I'm not sure if I agree with this, and so, like you said, I don't think deconstruction has to be a bad thing. I think about how we interpret it; it certainly could be bad, or there is a sense of needing to sort through your thoughts as you figure out, as we don't do this wrong. It actually makes so much sense for you. Like, this is not my parents. I love this saying where they say, “God doesn't have grandchildren, He just has children.” I think for a lot of MKs, or young people in general, they believe in God, but it's not totally their own faith. 

And so our job, like you said, is to help them through all that and be patient with them as they pull it all outta the or dump it out or take it apart, you wanna describe it, and it's out because it's powerful. On the other side, what we hope and pray is that they don't take it apart and never put it back, or they kick everything out of a circle.

Michèle Phoenix: Yes, and one of the reasons that I think my job is a good job is that every generation of MKs is different, and we need to understand, as again, adults of influence is the term I use for any adult in the life of MKs who is in a relationship with them. We need to understand what those secondary circles that you just mentioned are, and what they put in those circles as next in importance to the core red-letter Christian elements of our faith. And for this generation, it's gonna be things like liberty and justice. They are wired, especially with justice in a huge way, to look to find injustice. And if we are not addressing that with today's MKs, the injustice that they even sometimes see in the missionary real, and that they see in Christian politics if they're seeing injustice there, and especially contradictions, hypocrisy that to them is second to the red letter issues because they're so wired for that. 

And in my generation, it might have been something different. Are we actually helping people? Are we, for them, it's this issue of, I don't want to overgeneralize, but we need to be in a relationship in such a way that we do know what their concerns are, so that we can address those with them without just quoting verses, but by actually embodying the values that are important to them. So they can see there are some Christians who care as much about saving the dying in foreign places and seeking justice for people who are being oppressed as they do about having church services on Sundays.

So being aware and attuned to what the preoccupations of TCKs are with regard to how the faith is lived out can be really life-changing and faith-preserving as adults of influence in their lives.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Wow. I love that, Michelle. And it makes you know me think too, as adults of influence, it's really helpful for us to kind of examine what our circles' beliefs are. Because if we aren't examining what those look like for us, because it's so much of it is subconscious; we just don't sit and like, bias, ours are so dramatically different from theirs, and we are aware of it. We're bumping up against theirs, and they're not aware of them, we can't be surprised where that and tension, but if we're able to sit, like, go like, Sh, so we're different in this area and approach with that position of curiosity, and I mean, my goodness, I wanna learn from these purple people. I love my purple people.

Michèle Phoenix: That's right. And can I just really briefly, because this is so important, tell you what the five major reasons for deconstructing are that I found among MKs? The first is suffering harm in Christian settings. So MKs are not protected from the hard things that happen in anyone's life anywhere in the world. And they might experience abuse, they might experience trauma, they might experience it within their own families on the mission field or within their mission communities. So, experiencing hard things while serving God and giving everything for God will have them wonder if God is actually paying attention to them, especially when it happens at the hands of other Christians.

The second is, and I mentioned it before, witnessing hypocrisy in Christian spaces, people who are different behind closed doors than they are on a podium. People who preach something that they don't live out, that's gonna be something that makes them seriously question if these people are spirit-led and followers of Jesus. What does this tell me about the authenticity of faith? 

Global empathy is another one. If they have lived in places where they have seen decimation or poverty to the point of people dying of hunger where they have seen this. Why isn't God stepping in? If he claims to love people? Why isn't He stepping in to save these people on a global scale that I have known and that I love?

The fourth is faith used to gain power, specifically, political power. They're very attuned to that as well and maybe accustomed to that end. And then a desire for authenticity. Because they so despise hypocrisy, they don't want to be a hypocrite who's saying one thing and pretending one thing while internally not being sure of the words they're saying, because again, we live into the should of, you should be able to lead somebody to Christ when you're 10 years old. But what if I don't actually believe that God exists, and if he exists, is he good? And yet I am telling people about Jesus and hoping to lead them to him. 

So those are the five main kinds of knee-jerk moments that might make a TCK reconsider the faith of his or her appearance.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Ooh, thank you for laying those out. Those are huge. And if we don't learn as we sit with the tension of that, out of fear, our kids are gonna walk away from the faith. Is that we minimize that like, Oh, it's just because of this? Or, Oh, it's not that. And I learned as somebody who used to minimize all the time because I just needed positivity and harmony in my it felt easier to just shut them down with like, everything's okay. Or here's a scripture verse, and what we don't realize is that when we minimize, we cause them to maximize. And they're externally gonna fight back against you and go harder to prove their or they're just gonna look at you and smile. Going to be absorbing what? They're just gonna keep until it gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And one day, suddenly, they're not walking with the Lord.

And you're like, where did that come from?

Michèle Phoenix: When in fact they might not be walking with the Lord, they might have thrown the baby Jesus out with the bath water. They just don't want this anymore. And that is synonymous with faith in their minds. And they're missing the Jesus in the middle of it all because we're so preoccupied with the stuff on the outside.

Stephanie Gutierrez: You are exactly right. That's what I've seen, is that because I'm forced to put this outside thing in my center, where I don't feel it. So we'd better really get comfortable with sitting with tension, with closing our mouths, with being curious, and I think some adults might hear this and be like, well, so we just let them believe whatever they want? We just let them say whatever they want? What are we supposed to be as adults? What kinda authority are we like? Speak to that for a second, Michelle.

Michèle Phoenix: I think they need to see adults who are so in love with Jesus, and so just full-bodied, faithful people that we can engage with questions without feeling threatened. If an MK asks us a hard question and our response comes out of being threatened and gets defensive, they'll wonder about the solidity of the faith that we're proclaiming. And faith is gonna take different forms. I don't wanna sound heretical, but a lot of these MKs and TCKs who reconsider their faith come out the other end with still faith, but it might look different than their parents. It might look different than the faith statement of their mission board.

They want and crave Jesus. And they might understand Him and follow Him in a different way than others who are older than them did, and I think if we are solid enough and confident enough in a sense of I know this to be true and to be essential in my life, that kind of confidence, if we're that confident, maybe we can allow for other people to reach slightly different conclusions than ours and still have Jesus at the center of this reimagined faith for this generation that is going to be a more proactive and local faith. Probably than what the previous generation experienced. 

They want to make a difference in this world where they are, and they're gonna use their voices in ways that we, more subtle people of my generation, didn't. They're gonna be really overt and bold and call it Jesusness in them, and I think if we're confident in our faith, we can allow for them to have a faith that's slightly different than ours.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. And I don't see that as heretical. I see that as graceful and biblical. If we look at Jesus as disciples, we all know this; everybody's listening. You know what I'm gonna say? We see disciples who look very different. I just don't want that to be what I list, it might, and also the faith that you are.

 Let's say your 22-year-old has faith right now, is not the faith that they're gonna have when they're 32; is your faith the same? No, it's evolved. And so if you don't know what to say or do, man, if they've got only Jesus and that's just where they're at, that's enough. God will lead them in the right direction.

There are things to learn from our kids. From my young adulthood, I've even seen the impact that my faith has had on my parents on the road that we walked through and changed. And so how can we also be open to learning from our kids because God's using them, and they've got those purple people, yes. There is stuff not just to teach them, but there is stuff for us to learn. 

And so love for you to just address who's listening, who maybe is feeling a lot of tension in their body right now. Like we've just said, some things that have stirred them up, and they're like, I don't know how not to react every time my kid talks to me, or, you've said things that have stirred me and challenged me, but I'm not sure what to do with that. What words of encouragement that you offer to these adults of influence?

Michèle Phoenix: The first thing I would say is that you are not the only voice that God can use to speak into this. And some parents might feel like they've lost their voice in this conversation with their children because it's been a little bit conflictual, or because of those negative emotions their children used to have. Take that first step into reconsidering their faith. And I just wanna emphasize Holy Spirit, He, I'll use the word He for Him because it's so nebulous, but He is so capable of reaching through the layers of whatever it is that is forming the deconstruction impulse in children and to speak to them in a way they'll understand in their heart language, in their spiritual language, in a way that parents and adults of influence might not be able to.

And I just want us to be able to rest in the assurance that we are not the sole person responsible for getting them through deconstruction in a positive end with a positive end. And we can keep praying for the Holy Spirit and for these other people that we don't even know, to have a voice in these young people's lives. To not only speak the right words, but to be an example of the embodied person of Jesus who is so gracious and so curious. I love how curious He is about the people that He hangs out with in the Bible.  And I would tell you that it's a continuum, and it might take a month; it might take a couple of years; it might take longer than that.

But there are going to be instances in everybody's life when they have to reconsider. For a lot of TKs who have kind of gone lukewarm or walked away when they have their own children, that's gonna be a pivotal moment for them. How do I wanna raise my kids? And why are these values important to me? And then they go back to what is the core of faith, and what are the benefits?  Of living in this faith and of believing in a Jesus who is near and our counselor and our comforter and our inspiration. So if you feel like you have failed as a parent or an adult of influence, I want you to know that you're not the only person working on this and that it's okay to work on your relationship with your children, if it's been a little bit afraid, it's okay to focus on that and to trust that, while you're doing that Holy Spirit and other people that God brings into their lives will have voices that they might listen to differently.

I would prioritize relationship over conversion, that kind of forceful. We've got to have a voice in this, and we've got to make you reach the right conclusions. The Holy Spirit's got it.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Amen to that. And thank God it's not all on us. It would be too much. And I mean, for all of us, the adults in our lives have failed us in some way. We adults are failing our kids or the children around us in some way, shape, or form.

Michèle Phoenix: That's because we're human. To think that we are ultimately responsible for everything in their lives is putting a burden on us; that's a should that we shouldn't take. And yet there are things that God invites us to do. I didn't say should there, there are shoulds to form them and shape them and be a part of their lives. So it's living in that tension of taking all of the burden. So I just wanna encourage people who wet their appetite and they wanna know more to pick up the book "Pieces of Purple." Michelle, there's, I could have asked you a thousand more questions today. I loved the cover of your book and a lot of your endorsements. People were like, This is the book that families have been waiting for. And I really felt that way. I really felt that way too. 

So, I just encourage everybody to connect with you, so there's that book. You've got your website, MichèlePhoenix.com. Any other ways that people can connect with you? 

Michèle Phoenix: Yeah, I actually have a podcast that is nothing like yours. It's really my audio version of all the content that I've written, all the articles I've written. I'm considering doing an audio version of the book as well, but we're not there yet. But for people who don't have the time to sit down at a computer and look through a list of articles and pick one they wanna read, the podcast is called Pondering Purple. It's available on all the podcast platforms, and you can just turn it on. The longest episode, I think, is maybe 40 minutes, and some of them are just 15 or 20 minutes. But it looks at the MK experience by topic: MKs and relationships, MKs and Faith, MKs and abuse, MKs and boarding schools. All of that is included in the podcast, so anybody can reach that free of charge.

Stephanie Gutierrez: That's wonderful. Thank you for mentioning that, and thank you again so much for all the work that you do with MKs and for all of us adults of influence who have them in our lives. We are so appreciative. Thanks for being with us today.

Michèle Phoenix: Thanks. I love that I get to do what I do, and I love that I get to talk about it with people like you. So thank you for having me.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Thanks, Michelle.