This One Shift Can Restore Your Spiritual Energy, Missionaries with Drs. Bill & Kristi Gaultiere

Are you constantly pouring out but feeling spiritually depleted?

You care deeply—for people, for God’s mission—but somewhere along the way, your soul has gone dry. What if one small shift could change everything?

If you're thinking, "Empathy is overrated. People need tough love!" then this episode is especially for you. Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere unpack how true empathy—the kind rooted in Christ—can become a powerful source of spiritual renewal. You’ll learn why many missionaries resist receiving empathy, how shame keeps us from asking for care, and what happens when we finally let ourselves be seen, heard, and felt.

This isn’t weakness. It’s spiritual strength. It’s the kind that restores your soul and revives your calling.

You’ll discover what Jesus-shaped empathy really looks like—and how it can transform your relationship with God, yourself, and others.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn

• Why many missionaries resist receiving empathy—and how that resistance could be draining your soul
• The difference between true empathy and enabling (hint: it’s not about coddling)
• How shame keeps us from asking for care, even when we desperately need it
• Why empathy is a strength, not a weakness, and how Jesus modeled it perfectly
• Practical ways to receive empathy—from God, from others, and even from yourself

Hey missionaries—how are your finances on the field? At Modern Day Missions, we make it simple for missionaries to receive donations and for donors to give. Serving 1,100+ missionaries worldwide, we free you to focus on your calling. We also offer resources like our weekly podcast, fundraising coaching, and a resource-packed newsletter. Connect with us at modernday.org

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

Website: https://www.modernday.org/podcast

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLu3ie6N7vXvESqcHrM-SRTC7-XoPEmnv6

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/moderndaymissions/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/moderndaymissions/

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@moderndaymissions

X: https://twitter.com/Modern_Day

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/moderndaymissions/

Chapters

• 0:31 Introducing Guests: Drs. Bill and Kristi Gaultiere
• 1:15 Discussing Empathy and Its Importance
• 2:31 Bill's Journey to Understanding Empathy
• 4:07 The Role of Empathy in Relationships
• 6:02 Practical Steps to Cultivate Empathy
• 9:22 Challenges in Receiving Empathy
• 13:05 Empathy in Marriage and Close Relationships
• 21:40 Receiving Empathy from God and Others
• 24:36 Finding and Building Empathetic Relationships
• 27:08 Understanding Empathy and Its Misinterpretations
• 30:57 The Challenges of Empathy in Ministry
• 32:36 Setting Boundaries While Extending Empathy
• 35:33 Empathy as a Source of Strength and Growth
• 39:04 Empathy in Biblical Context
• 44:15 Empathy as Oxygen for the Soul
• 49:42 Soul Shepherding Institute and Retreats
• 52:05 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere 2 (post date: 9/10/2025)

Date Completed: 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: [00:00:00] Welcome to this episode of the Modern Day Missionaries podcast. I just wrapped up the most wonderful conversation with doctors Bill and Christie Galtier, on the subject of empathy. Why empathy you might ask? Well, empathy when done right is completely transformational to our relationship with ourselves, with God, and with those around us.

And there's so many misconceptions about empathy. What does it actually mean? Like is that something that's just for feelers or maybe empathy's, kind of something that's soft? Or maybe it enables people to live poorly if we extend it. Or you might be on the other side where you are great at extending empathy, but you don't have any idea how to put up boundaries and you feel like you're drowning sometimes because you're giving so much empathy to others.

Maybe you can give it to others, but you dunno how to give it to yourself. We go into all those things today, and Bill and Christie are both psychotherapists, so they bring in the psychological aspects of it and the spiritual aspects. They're both spiritual directors. They're the co-founders of Soul Shepherding, which is an [00:01:00] organization that ministers to pastors and missionaries, and they're the authors of a newly released book called Deeply Loved in which they explore the topic of, you guessed it, empathy.

So with that, let's get ready to dive into today's episode with Bill and Christie Galtier.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Hey, bill and Christie, it is such a joy to have you both back on the podcast today.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Thank you Stephanie. We are pleased to be with you and your people. Um, your missionaries are the best all you listeners who are serving the Lord on mission and your work and your relationships. Thank you for what you do.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: That's one of the reasons I love having you guys on. Not only do you have beautiful things to say, but you are so passionate about serving missionaries, and it's just, I think for missionaries who are listening, it feels wonderful to be talking to people who love them. Speaking of love, your new book.

Deeply loved is just coming out. I got to read an advance copy. Absolutely loved it. [00:02:00] And so we'll be talking about the main themes in there, which, which revolve around empathy. And I know from having heard both of your personal stories, one of you is a little more naturally empathetic than the other.

You're both very, very empathetic now. But, um, I would love to kind of.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: be me. I think sensitive one this.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I love that you just outage yourself right there, bill. And you know what I, I actually love talking about it from this perspective because I think that we're gonna have listeners today who are gonna identify with Christy and they just, I mean, they just feel all the feels and love and always have, um, loved being there for people.

And then Bill, there are some like you who are like, well, that's not maybe in my top five strengths. Um, so. I think that's a really significant, and I would love to just ask you, bill, for people who feel like I don't have empathy, do I even need [00:03:00] empathy? Is it possible to cultivate empathy if I don't have any?

Can you kick us off from your perspective there?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Yeah, I'm a thinker and I'm a doer, uh, in my personality and just my, my history and how I've lived my life. And, um, yeah, so I learned empathy by receiving it in a psychology class in college. And I had a professor that mentored me and that include meeting with her, and she kept asking me, uh, bill, how do you feel? And I like, looked over my shoulder to see who she was talking to because that was not a question that I really understood had had experienced. And so, uh, from her I learned the importance of feeling my emotions and how helpful that was for all of my relationships, including my relationship with God and my friendships. And, uh, it was after this that I met you? Yes. That. [00:04:00] Preparation. It was a good thing. Yeah. And even though I've been blessed and privileged to see you grow in this and in your ability to receive and give empathy over the years of our life together and our marriage, because even though you had had the experience of receiving some of it before we started dating, which was a great gift, still wasn't natural for you.

It was still something that that natural for you was to be defended against your emotions. Natural for you was to not think you needed it give you advice. Uhhuh but, but even, I mean, you would give you would get, let yourself need it or receive my intentions.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: And I had love to ask you guys, like, why is empathy so important for somebody who's tuning in because they like you guys, they've seen you before on the podcast, but maybe they're not sure about, um, why is empathy such a big deal? Why are we doing a whole podcast recording about it? Why did you guys write a book about it?

What is the need for [00:05:00] empathy?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Empathy so important for a number of reasons. One is it's very central to the gospel. What is the incarnation, if not God's perfect empathy for us? God himself. empathy for us, becoming man, taking on a human experience, experiencing everything we experience in our life. Like Hebrews four 15 talks about that do not have a high priest who's unable to empathize with us, but who has suffered and been tempted and tested in every way that we are. And so we. Are able to more receive from Jesus, his wisdom, his truth, his instruction, his way, because, of his empathy. And if I don't know that you care, I probably am not gonna care very much what you know. if I know you care, I'm gonna open my heart more and my mind more, and I'm gonna [00:06:00] lean more forward to learn more from you about what you know, especially if I know that you have experiential knowledge. Of what I'm, the way I'm traveling or the struggle I'm facing, or the temptation I'm under.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: That's really significant too, thinking about, uh, a lot of our listeners or a lot who are in leadership positions, or maybe they're teachers and they're wanting to impart information to people. But what you're pointing out, Christie, is unless we're extending empathy, they're not gonna be open to what it is we have to say.

So we can cultivate communication skills all we want, but without empathy, it's going to fall flat.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Yeah, empathy is key in. If I'm going to really trust someone, I need to be able to be vulnerable honest, and I'm not gonna be vulnerable and honest if I don't think you're gonna have any empathy for me, it's not gonna be safe for me. And even psychological research, neurological studies that have been done have [00:07:00] shown that if I'm vulnerable with, especially with my emotions with somebody else, and they do not respond to me with empathy. Then the shame centers of my brain are what? Light up and

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Ooh.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: up and withdraw and shame, I'm not gonna be able to receive from them. if they respond to me with empathy, it's gonna help me to continue to trust and remain open. It's gonna help me to feel validated. It's gonna help me to stay present, and I'm gonna be able to receive a lot more. From this person that's gonna facilitate that bond of trust. And that's why empathy is so important for intimacy with God. And then also within the body of Christ with each other, within, within friendships, work, relationships, every, everything's better it's done. And empathy, because we think about it, statement, doing unto others as you would have them doing unto you, that's empathy. can't do that without empathy. Yeah, so [00:08:00] this is for all of our relationships, but even as you said, um, it's also for our teaching. we're leading a Bible study, when we're preaching a sermon, when we're teaching a group of people, it's gonna be a lot more effective if we're understanding and caring for the people that we're talking to. that means things like anticipating their, their questions, their, their wrestles, their hurts and struggles and stress points, and their, of course, their culture and their language and, you know, what's, what's going on in their world today. Good teachers are, are empathetic and they, they'll have a conversation with people because if, if as I'm speaking, I'm triggering people's self-criticism or I'm putting a load of expectation on them that they ought to be stronger or better or faster or more rational, then they're gonna start feeling that shame that Christie was talking about, and they're not gonna be very open to learn from what the wise, intelligent teacher has to share.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: [00:09:00] Yes. It's not so wise and intelligent if there's not empathy involved in the process. You know, as you guys are talking, I'm thinking about something that you mentioned and I remember from, uh, my master's program in, in counseling where they talked about. 70% of the effectiveness of a relationship between a counselor and a client is that therapeutic relationship, that connection, that chemistry.

And, uh, I, I think that's not just in relationships with a client, but even, um, on our teams, in our friendships, I think the majority, what makes up a good relationship is that ability to connect and feel safe. And like you said, Christie, if the way we're responding to somebody is activating shame in them.

That's probably not gonna make them want to come close to us. And as missionaries, we are trying to make an impact on people. So this is critical in every single relationship that we mentioned. Like you, you know, like you guys were just saying. So I'm thinking kind of going back to. Where we started with you, bill, about somebody who [00:10:00] doesn't feel like they naturally have empathy, like where do you even start with this?

'cause you can't fake empathy. Have you seen somebody do do that before or have you ever tried to fake empathy in your early days? What does that look like and how did it work?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Yeah, I, early on I was learning the skills of empathy, and so I got better and better at those skills. And have feedback from some of my first clients that it, it, it's felt clinical, it felt stiff, it felt too much, or mechanical. And different people expressed that to me in different ways, and, uh, I realized that the heart of it all, I needed help with that. What's helped me get better at empathy over the years, uh, is, is different than what most people think. 'cause most people, you know, you are listening. When you hear us talking about empathy, probably the first thing that comes to your mind is listening skills. And, and so then, and listening skills are important.

You know, we teach, you know, summarize what people are saying, reflect back their [00:11:00] feelings. You know, give some nonverbal cues that you're, you're dialed in, you know, stuff like that. But if we just do the skills, it's like we're a parrot. we're robotic, and it does come across as mechanical and stiff and impersonal. And so it really turns out that the best way to be more effective at empathy is to receive it. In other words, I need to do that work that Christie was talking about of being vulnerable and trusting someone. Talking about something that, that is hurting me or stressing me, or I'm feeling bad about and letting it matter to me that, that my friend or my spiritual director is really listening and is being prayerful and wants to understand and care, and learning how to assimilate that and absorb that and, and, and feel that connection because that's really how we learn to feel our emotions is when someone else feels them first. That's how it works with little kids. And that's how it worked with me, with my, my teacher who became my counselor. She felt my emotions [00:12:00] before I did. I was just in my head and I was thinking things, and I was just telling her everything I was thinking, everything I was doing. And then she would translate it into emotions that she was having as she was listening to me or she was putting herself into my shoes.

And then I was like, oh, I guess I do feel stressed. Yeah, maybe I do feel frustrated. I don't wanna admit it, but I am angry. It, it's, see that's how you learn the language of emotions. You learn to feel 'em in your own body as they're

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Okay. That's,

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: others. You can, you can be good at empathy.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: that is significant and I'm imagining some of our listeners. Hearing that bill and saying, that freaks me out. I don't wanna be so vulnerable that someone else is feeling my feelings before I'm feeling them. What would you say to the missionary who's totally, their skin is crawling as they're hearing you say that?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Well, you know, you just, just start where you are and when you find [00:13:00] an empathetic person, like, uh. Spiritual directors that we have on our staff and soul shepherding that we've trained, they're, they're gonna keep the confidence. They're gentle people. They're people, they're all wounded healers, they've all been through stuff themselves.

And so you just start talking about your life and you can start where I started, where you just talk about stuff that you're doing and things that you're thinking,

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Okay.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: but they'll, they'll begin to, you know, help you dial into what you might be feeling. And, uh, you know, if you, if you want to, whenever we wanna keep someone in a distance, I mean, you know, uh, a good spiritual director's not gonna like, or a good counselor, they're not gonna pry and be intrusive and, you know, force their way in.

They're gonna respect whatever, kind of distance you might want. But that's kind of the problem, is that we settle for shallow relationships. It's not even our marriages. And with our own spouse, you know. We're Christians, we're committed to each other. Maybe we're raising the kids together, do doing, uh, ministry together, but we're not really setting aside time to really connect deeply.

[00:14:00] We're not being vulnerable with each other. And so it's sort of like we're, we're partners. We're like two shifts passing in the night. And so many of us in our, our marriages, our families, our relationships we're, we're lacking in real depth and intimacy where we would just really feel understood and cared for and be able to offer that to somebody else. I think one of the things I might add in here as well is, you know, it's, it's not just people who maybe are not as comfortable with the world of emotions or the language of emotions, but even people like me who maybe are, are feelers and are more emotional and comfortable with their emotions, we still have defenses against this. I still, my pride will go up and I don't want to be vulnerable. I don't wanna be authentic. I don't want to have to need something from somebody else. all of us, I think, can struggle with resistance getting the love and the empathy that we really [00:15:00] need.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I thank you for pointing that out, Christie. You know, it makes me think I, I'll be vulnerable for a second. I was meeting with my counselor this morning and there was a moment where he was noticing I was feeling some feelings very gently. Uh. Suggested some things, asked about some things, and I felt resistant to it.

I didn't want to, and he was so kind to create and hold space for me. But I will, I mean, I'll admit, I, I can feel empathy very well for others. It's my top five and strength finders. I think it's number three. So I'm all about empathy for other people, but it is hard when it comes to myself. I'd love for you guys to speak into a little bit, uh, more about that.

I mean, Christie, you were just. Saying as a feeler too, who feels for others, what has that been like for you, extending empathy to yourself?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Great question. It's something I've had to learn and I still have to work and [00:16:00] practice actually even as a discipline. So let me just give you an example of this. Like you said, I would much rather empathize with somebody else than. To have to need and receive empathy. It feels good to give empathy, to get to be.

It's a way that God uses me as an ambassador of his love, and I see the power of it, and I love, love it when I get to be that vessel in guts Stand and see him powerfully work in the life of another person. But when I have a need. I don't wanna humble myself and have to ask somebody to listen to me with empathy. I don't wanna have to admit that I'm struggling with some hard emotions. In fact, I'd rather enter in and travel with you and your heart emotion than mine, with yours, I'm not responsible. with me, I'm, and so, you know, this happened for me even last week. We had gotten back from some ministry travel and fruitful ministry and it's always such a, a exciting [00:17:00] time when you get to. Participate with the Lord and what he's doing in his body. And so rewarding and fulfilling. And we got home and everywhere I looked there were problems. Problems that needed my attention, problems that I couldn't solve, problems that seemed bigger than my abilities. Um, and, and then there was also grief.

'cause we had been with some friends that I really loved to have moved far away. And I was feeling the grief of, you know, I don't know when all. See 'em again next. And they used to live here. We used to get what we just enjoyed with them all the time. And now it's wor, you know, once a year. And so I was grieving also, and I just found myself waking up and just feeling like was hard. It was just. single thing took so much more effort than it normally would, and it was gorgeous outside. And the flowers in our garden were vibrant with colors. And I was looking and I was like, wow, look, I live in paradise. God, this is so beautiful what you've given me. But I really couldn't even [00:18:00] enjoy it. I just was kind of. Depressed and overwhelmed by all the problems everywhere, all the responsibilities and then the the deep grief. I was grieving another thing in the family too, with a family member who's suffering with cancer and some other burdens. And finally I just realized why is my soul dragging and why is everything so hard and why is it taking me so much discipline and energy to even.

Praise the Lord. And I finally realized I need some empathy. So Bill was exercising and I went over to him and I said, would you happen to listen to me and give me some empathy? I really think I need it. And you in love stopped your exercise and you, you came over to me in the kitchen and you, let me just kind of you.

Listen to me probably, what do you think? 20 minutes. I just started to all that I was feeling and. And as you empathized with me, I felt like, [00:19:00] oh, I feel close to him again. Because it felt like we were, you know, kind of, he was, he was doing his own thing with dealing with all these problems, with working really hard and trying to get things done and solved and better.

But I was feeling this distance between us. I kind of felt like we were both tackling things alone, but not together. And I was kind of missing him. Closeness while we were traveling. And then since we got home we hadn't had it. But you came, you know, you were looking at me, you were listening to me. We were connecting.

And so that, that felt so good. And then you were empathizing. Validating the emotions that I was validating. Validating the grief. Validating, yeah, this is really hard. And now this problem is frustrating. We keep think we have it solved and it appears again, it's like that gopher syndrome. And you validated those emotions and those struggles that I was kind of judging myself for before I received the empathy for Bill.

I was kinda, what's wrong with me? I have such a good life. Why am I letting these problems stress me? Why am I, you know, grieving? I have so much to be grateful for. Like, I was like, I. Totally [00:20:00] condemning myself. But you were validating, you were empathizing, you were helping me say, you know, it's okay that I'm sad about this.

It's okay that I'm frustrated about this. You are too. And then I think you even said to me after you had empathized with me and I thanked you and received your empathy, you even thanked me for sharing. You said, I appreciate you sharing, because I've been feeling some of this too. And so it was just so bonding for us to be able to do that.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: What a beautiful illustration of how you flat out just said it. Like, can I have some empathy, bill? I mean that that almost could sound awkward. Awkward for somebody who's never done that before, but you've developed that meta communication between the two of you where you can ask for what you need. I.

Then Bill, you knew how to respond and look how much you've grown in empathy that you could give it so beautifully that Christie felt that that connection there and it brought you both closer together. So you really illustrated so well with that example, how empathy can bring people together when someone's [00:21:00] brave enough to ask for it and when somebody is kind enough to give it.

Can we talk for a minute about receiving empathy from the Lord? I know that's something that you guys talk about quite a bit. I had an experience with that earlier today. Went out for a walk, a few heavy things happening, you know, in my world as well. And I just started talking to myself like a, not talking to myself, talking out loud to God, looking like I'm talking to myself like the neighborhood crazy lady and having just a great time telling God some of the feelings that I had and receiving his empathy and, and so can you guys share more about that?

'cause you share about that so beautifully at the Soul shepherding retreats.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Jesus is the most pathetic person that ever lived.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: one of the expressions of his perfect love is his empathy, his understanding. And so a wonderful thing that you did, Stephanie. Just take a walk with Jesus and talk to him about what you're experiencing. And I do that all the time. [00:22:00] Sometimes I do it while I'm reading scripture.

Sometimes I do it while I'm taking a walk or a jog in nature. And uh, a lot of times I do it when I'm talking to Christie or a safe per safe person in my life. And the Lord meets me through that, that conversation. With the person that's listening to me, and I think this is a great example of Jesus' new commandment, that we love one another and it's really God's plan, a for how we would experience being deeply loved. in the body of Christ, in a relationship with somebody that we, we share with and, and we, uh, care for each other and God's in the middle of that. And I think that it helps us if we have received empathy from an AM of person,

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Mm-hmm.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: us then to be able to have. To be able to agree with Christ's empathy.

If we've experienced it, we've gotten a vision and an experience with it. So after, after Bill listened to me in the kitchen there, [00:23:00] I felt so much more energy. I was able to get back. It wasn't slogging through anymore. My energy was renewed, my mood was lifted. It was easier to start praising God again, and then it was easy for me to go right to Jesus.

Then from then on the rest of the week. That I needed, but I had been trying to go to Jesus and just, just get it from Jesus enough, and I was too clogged up. I needed to be able to receive his love through somebody who could actually mirror it to me, and I could, I could it. In the physical eyes and our, our brains need that.

And God knows that he created such a way that it's not good for us to be alone, that, that we need each other and that he entrusts us to be able to be ambassadors or shepherds after his own heart, as we say in soul shepherding. And the mirror neurons of our brains, uh, sync up together when we share with a friend who is really emotionally present and we are as well.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Okay, bill and Christie, you bring up a [00:24:00] really important point there, and that's, we learn how to receive empathy from God. By receiving it from somebody else. Now that can sound kind of difficult for somebody who's like, well, Christ is enough, so I, me and God can just go on walks all the time and that should be enough.

But when we're thinking of how we learn how to do that, it's through other people. So what would you say to the person who's like, I don't have anyone in my life. Who gives me empathy, I can't find it. I'm rejected left and right, and I'm trying to go to God for it, but I, I can't really figure that out either.

Where does somebody like that begin when they don't have that kind of a person in their life?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: It can be as simple as, uh. Praying for a friend like that and then sharing a book like Deeply Loved with that friend, getting him a copy and saying, can we meet for coffee and talk about this? And then from there, respond to some of the soul talk questions and see if that [00:25:00] friend can't learn to, to listen and be emotionally present and basically to find a safe friend.

And we, we, we give instructions for this in the book because what you put your finger on is so important. It's like, how do I find an empathetic friend? uh, one of the key characteristics is someone that is aware that, well, they have challenges and stress points and, and, uh, hurts in their life and. They need a friend too, and someone that's aware of that and able to admit that, uh, as long as they're not like, um, just dumping on everybody and using people, that, that's probably not a good indicator for someone

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: good place to be a friend, but someone that's aware of, of what they feel and knows they need empathy or compassion and grace. Might make a good friend. And so when you pray for someone like that and, and you try to be a friend like that, and you, you look, uh, the Lord will show you somebody. and when you have something intentional, like you're reading a book together, that can facilitate the conversation and, uh, get, get the [00:26:00] flow going for more vulnerable conversation. 

And we give practices to practice in deeply loved too that, that they can practice together. 

Coach Ben here. Are you a missionary? Are you trying to find next steps to becoming one? Well, Modern Day missions we're a payment processor for missionaries just like you. You may be thinking like payment processor, what's this guy even talking about? So lemme break it down. We make it simple for you to receive donations and for your donors to give.

It's as easy as that. As the largest independent missions organization in the us. We currently serve more than 1100 missionaries across the globe, helping missionaries get on the field and freeing them up to do what matters the most, what God's called them to do. Now you may be thinking, this guy isn't so crazy after all, kind of sounds like he's talking about me.

Well, I want you to know we're always thinking about you and how we can best serve you. So we wanna connect you to resources designed to help you flourish, like this podcast you're listening to right now, and a full-time staff that's dedicated to helping you with your admin and free access to me, a fundraising coach among many, many [00:27:00] other things.

So don't take my word for it. Check out everything at Modern Day dot org. It's right here. It's pinned to the corner. Just click that link and like I said, it's free and we'd love to serve you. Now, I know you're here to listen to, uh, Stephanie talk, not me. So let's get back to the episode.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. Well, and, and, um, I'm thinking of you guys too, and, and soul shepherding and spiritual directors. I mean, if there's literally no one in your life, you can begin with someone like a spiritual director who, who knows how to give empathy, who knows how to listen well. So if sometimes you need to take a professional step first.

That's okay. And, and I'm also thinking, um, in, in terms of giving and receiving empathy. If I am a person, okay, maybe let me rephrase that question. How can I learn to ask for empathy and share in a way that is not overwhelming to the people around me? Because there could be a chance that, you know, someone is pushing people away in their lives because their interpretation of what empathy [00:28:00] is as I need people to listen to me.

Tell the same intense stories over and over and over and over again, and if they can't listen to me like that over and over and over again, that they're just not giving me empathy.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: One of the most common ways that we push people away is, uh. It's unwittingly, it's, it's unintentionally, it's unconsciously. if I am, uh, judging and negating my own emotions and trying not to have those emotions, not to have those needs, and then I ask somebody to care for me in some way, it's very difficult to listen. someone that's behaving that way because their, their words be vulnerable and they might even dump a lot, vent a lot, but internally they're, they're, they're pushing it down and so they're not actually in a place of true vulnerability and they're not really engaged in a way to receive and absorb the care that's being brought. 'cause what's happening? So let me say it in the, in the [00:29:00] positive sense, we always say in soul shepherding, like in the context of spiritual direction, we'll say, well, you know, you'll, you'll get help when you and I join God in caring for you. But if the friend that's talking with me is trying not to have any emotions and try not to have any needs while they're asking me for help. I'm gonna have to work really hard and put a lot of energy into trying to be helpful because my attempts to be helpful are being defeated. It's like the person is, is motioning with their hand, you know, come closer, I need your help. But then the other hand secretly is going, stay away. I can't feel this.

I can't need this. I'm too much of a burden. And so that's what makes us work so hard in ministry and in relationships, is when those kinds of unconscious dynamics are at play. We could sabotage the empathy that we're given if we don't agree with that. we have a whole chapter that we write about this on and deeply love about [00:30:00] how empathy is agreeing with God's grace and we wanna receive it. sometimes one of the things that we can substitute for empathy, it's a false empathy. It's not true. Empathy is pity.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Mm.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: asking to be listened to and to have somebody pity for us, it's not gonna be satisfying for us. It's not gonna help us grow. It's not gonna be spiritually fruitful for us.

We're not talking about getting pity and and trying to drum that up. And we're also not talking about making somebody else responsible our emotions.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Mm.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: So we have a whole chapter where we're talking about and clarifying that empathy is not coddling. We're not talking about you or getting somebody else to take responsibility for you or to fraternize you or to overly, you know, take responsibility and care for your emotions.

When receiving empathy, you are actually taking responsibility for what you [00:31:00] feel and you're just inviting somebody in to understand that. Into that experience. Somebody who can put their own words to it or who can listen with a curiosity to seek, to really understand and to establish kind of a shared, a shared meaning. out of that, it can really open us up to being able to get unstuck from some of the areas maybe where we do just get stuck over and over in our own narrative.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Hmm. I wanna unpack a little bit more what you said there about empathy being seen as coddling sometimes, because again, I'm, I'm thinking what. What might our listeners be thinking? And I know for a fact having been in ministry all these years, that there are, um, pastors, missionaries, leaders who can feel really overwhelmed and frustrated when lots of people come up to them needing to talk.

There was even a term, I remember growing up in ministry, it, it's still used today 'cause I've heard it. Extra grace required, oh, it's those extra [00:32:00] grace required. Acquired people and they might finish up a church service or a meeting or a small group and people come up to them and want to share. And something that I, I've seen happen in ministry, and this isn't to get down on anybody, this is also pastors, missionaries trying to manage their own emotions, but people will come up.

Start to share a story and they'll cut off the story within about 60 seconds to two minutes 'cause that's what they've got. And they'll just say, you know, let's just pray about that. Let's just take it before the Lord and I for the person that can feel, I mean it, it might be okay with some people, but for some people it feels like you didn't even listen to what I had to say.

You're using prayer as a way to shut me up. So what would, and and I, again, I understand as somebody who's trying to manage their own emotions, as a leader, you cannot sit and listen all day long. But what would you say to that missionary, to that leader who is feeling overwhelmed by some of those big feelings that people [00:33:00] have and just think, how do I efficiently and appropriately extend empathy when there is so much going on in my life?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: One of our chapters is on this very issue when. Listening to others drains me when helping others, caring for others drains me. What do I do? And so we talk about how to set boundaries and the example that you gave there, Stephanie. Uh, I think we all can relate to that maybe, maybe even on both sides of the example that sometimes someone put a hard boundary on me and it was hurtful, or sometimes I was just so exasperated or tired.

I, I put that heart boundary out on somebody and yeah, it, it doesn't feel good when someone shuts you down just saying, well, let's just pray about this. Uh, so that was, that's abrupt. Uh, prayer is a beautiful thing, but the mechanism going on there can feel hurtful. And so a gentler approach is with empathy. And so I, if I'm, if I'm that, uh, pastor or teacher, that missionary, I. Who's [00:34:00] talking to, um, listening to an uh, EGR extra Grace required person who is just really pouring a lot out, and it's not a great context for this. I might, uh, I might at some point, like maybe I made it in minutes in, uh, gently interrupt them and say something like, gee, I, I. Hear that you're really hurting about this relationship with your spouse, and you've got some deep questions about this that are so important and I really wanna listen and, and, and care for you, but I, I, I'm gonna have to, to go here in a minute. I, I can listen a little bit more, but I've got other people waiting. Uh. We could set an appointment later, or I can refer you to this person that you can talk to, uh, or, or we, we can pray about it, uh, in a minute here, but I just need to let you know I'm, I'm gonna be running outta time here. So that's sort of a empathy. First, putting words, summarizing what the person's been saying, putting words to what they seem to be feeling, and then setting a gentle boundary that's not [00:35:00] like slam bam go away, but it's kind of like, I got another minute or something. I think that it's really important that we also ask for empathy from the person and say, you know, I, I really care. You've got a need here that's valid, and I want that to be met. And if you could also understand that I'm not in a place where I can meet that need for you right now, I, you know, I, I've just given this message and you know, I'm tired.

I really need to go rest. I need to go eat. But that doesn't mean. What you're needing here isn't important, and I'm gonna be praying that God will. Provide a context for you to be able to be listened to as you deserve, to be listened to cared for the care that you're needing. I want that for you too.

And I'm sorry that I can't give it to you right now, but you know, sometimes we need to ask for that empathy, you know, oh, they know what it's like to be hungry, or they know what it is like to be too tired. To be able to listen just to, to be able to own that. We might need some empathy [00:36:00] in that moment too, to value. It doesn't mean that they don't deserve or we don't want it for them. And we also, the other thing we write about in Deeply Loved is our need to steward the empathy that we give. cannot be empathetic 27, 24 hours, seven days a week to everybody at all times, especially in our world where every time I go to the mailbox, I'm seeing pictures.

That drum up that empathy for me because there's a child who's sick or hungry on,

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. 

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: that's in my mailbox. Or every time I turn on the tv, there's some heart rendering story that pulls on my empathy. Or I can't watch movies that are gonna drain the empathy out of me when it's not gonna do anything good or fruitful for anybody.

So I have to really steward where I can give my empathy where's God called me really feel. In a way that is gonna be effective and fruitful for the gospel of the kingdom in their lives. [00:37:00] the missionaries listening, empathy is probably part of your call. Probably part of the reason you're doing what you're doing is because you had empathy for the people you're serving. had empathy enough for that culture. To go and to enter into it and you had part of empathy is a curiosity to understand and to experience what other people are experiencing that fueled you probably in your mission's work to enter in to reach those people. That's a beautiful thing and we don't wanna lose sight of that.

Sometimes we can get off a little bit and we write about the difference between compassion. Uh, sometimes if we're we working with compassion meet. It's not empathetic anymore. We're doing it without true empathy for what the need is. actually can do harm we can end up taking over responsibility for somebody disregarding their own, uh, human dignity and just taking over and, you know, [00:38:00] providing all food for them, but not teaching them to fish.

That's, that's not compassionate. It, it might be a compassionate service. We might say it's compassionate, but if we're not having any empathy for the dependency they feel on us. Well, we're missing out a little bit on. It's not compassionate.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: I love that you said fellow. Feel there. Uh, before Christie, what a great way to say empathy in a different way, a fellow feel with somebody else. And then also just love the examples that you both shared and how you summed that up, um, that was so respectful, how you both gave those illustrations of how someone can take care of themselves and be there for other people.

But like you said, Christie, I mean, we don't have limitless amounts of empathy to give. I mean, bill, you brought up Jesus earlier, if we're gonna imitate Christ. He took time away to care for himself. He didn't, uh, go around saying yes endlessly without sleeping and having empathy for, for himself. So thank you for bringing that in and for people who might just be like, [00:39:00] I, I don't have to give what it is you're telling me.

I can give. Well, you clarified that. You are not saying give beyond what you're able to give. You know, I love to ask too. Um. For, for someone who's listening to this, and they might be going and explaining it to their spouse or their teammate and talking about empathy, and they might hear what I've heard before.

What you've probably heard before is, well, empathy is that's weak. Like, you know, people who wanna get into empathy, that's, that's like a toxic thing. Like why do people need empathy? Um, what would you say to the people who just kind of despise the idea of empathy and think it's, it's weak or it's anti-biblical?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Well, the Bible is full of teaching and empathy. We've given a few examples like Hebrews four 15, uh, that are high priest sympathizes with us or the, uh, Jesus in the Golden Rule saying, do unto others as you would have them do. To you. Of course, the Psalms are full of language with the psalmist pouring out his heart, uh, his hurts, his anxieties and fears and frustrations and [00:40:00] anger and God giving empathy and compassion.

God listening, God, God, uh, stooping down from heaven as as it were. And, uh, inclining his ear and, and opening his heart to listen to us and care for us. Even Paul, who's a, definitely a thinker and a doer, but you see how he is treats with his people with tenderness and empathy, and there are times he, he has, uh, frustration, he speaks truth.

And we see that with Jesus too. There's times, especially with the Pharisees. You know, it really speaks the truth and love to them. And so, you know, we say that, um, the problem where some people think empathy is too weak or too soft, they're not really understanding what empathy is. They're not really understanding the strength it takes to be empathetic and the strength it takes to really make use of empathy.

Because true empathy, biblical empathy integrates with the truth and integrates with responsibility. And that's an equation for how do people grow empathy. truth responsibility [00:41:00] growth. And we have a whole chapter on unpacking that because it's so important. Empathy so readily gets misunderstood.

And so sometimes the idea we get of empathy is sort of like reassurance or it's like. Christie said, used this term like fraternizing people and uh, or in our culture now, it's sort of like, you know, feelings can rule the day, desires can rule the day in a sense. It's not not healthy. It, it's kind of like, well, this is my truth.

That's your truth and I can do whatever I want. And it's, it's, it's selfish and it's very self-indulgent, uh, of emotions. And it gets disconnected from, uh, rationale and reason. It gets disconnected from truth and. Helpful, godly, biblical empathy helps people to, uh, think about their thoughts, feel their emotions, pay attention to their needs, and then take responsibility for that.

That, that's, that's up to me how I deal with that and to integrate that with, with wisdom and, and with truth, because we [00:42:00] just do whatever we feel that's not gonna be. Be, but at the same time, if we just only do what we think we're gonna be like robotics. So it's always helpful to be aware of our emotions and in fact, the best way to, uh, develop the fruit of the spirit of self-control to be aware of our emotions and desires so that we don't unconsciously go around putting 'em on people or just gratifying them. it was just a lot of misunderstandings about emotions and, and empathy that, uh, unfortunately are harmful to people.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Yeah. 

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Well, even Paul saying, we comfort others of the comfort that we've received, or certainly in John we love because he first loved us. We empathize because he first empathized with us. Empathy is empowering. It's a receiving of God's grace in order to give, to grow in his grace, and to be able to overflow it and to give it. We talk about the grit and the grace. Empathy, empathy, empathy's very empowering and powerful and can [00:43:00] lead to repentance too. Look at the way that even Nathaniel used empathy with King David in the story that he told when he was confronting David. Nathan, yes. Thank you. Um, when he was confronting David in his sin, he, he used the story of, you know, killing a little lamb and it drummed up a bunch of empathy in David. David was feeling with that person who'd been sinned against and then. He's, you know, the prophet said, this is you. So I think that is another example that just shows the power of empathy how we need to be willing to be touched at a feeling level by the Lord to receive his love and grace at that level him.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: You used words in conjunction with empathy, like powerful, strong grit. How, how wonderful that you brought those in. For those people who are listening thinking that empathy is just for the very soft [00:44:00] feelers, it is for the very soft feelers. It is for the very strong Paul, like trailblazers as well. It's not something that's just accessible for certain types of personalities.

You both are pointing out that it's something not only accessible to all of us, but something we're all responsible to do. Looking at Jesus as you've brought up, I mean, what greater act of empathy is there for God himself to put on human flesh so he could feel. What we feel. I mean, if that is not a perfect illustration of empathy, I don't know what is.

Um, there's another phrase that you guys, uh, say all the time that I love that is empathy is oxygen for the soul. Can you unpack that for us?

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Well imagine if you're a, a fish and you're swimming along in, in the water and its murky. Water, [00:45:00] and you don't actually even know that you're not swimming in clean, pure water because this is all you've ever had. But then one day you get into some freeing, some clean, fresh oxygenated water, and it's like, oh wow, this is amazing.

I'm just gonna keep swimming over here. And that's what empathy is like. It helps us to breathe. Or if you've been walking around in a smoggy city and it's all you ever know. And the one day you go out in the country where the air is, is fresh and clean and you can breathe and deep, it's like it doesn't hurt your lungs anymore

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Okay.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: out here in Southern California.

It used to be so smoggy that it would, it would hurt my lungs. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and then we started cleaning up the air by, uh, taking care of our cars differently and, and putting filters on on there to diminish the smog and now we can breathe. That's, that's what empathy is like oxygen. Rejuvenation, it gives you energy. Uh, empathy is, it's, it's just a component, uh, an essential component of love, of [00:46:00] grace, of compassion. But it, it's often not thought about that way. And some people just kind of relegate it to the therapy office, say, well, that's, that's the therapy work. Well, modern psychology has helped us understand empathy, but long before we hit, we were using the word. It was in the wisdom of the Bible and it was in the cultures of God's people. And uh, it's very much in the life and teachings of, of Jesus and throughout the Bible. And so, it's like we all need to breathe, but we can take it for granted. And empathy is like that. It can be taken for granted until you really need it. And then you receive it and you're like, oh, this is what I've been missing. The other thing is, uh, when you exercise, if you are not getting enough oxygen, boy, those weights, they're gonna feel heavy. That run is gonna feel hard, and you just don't have the power without the oxygen to, to be able to do what your body is [00:47:00] capable of doing.

And my experience of empathy is when I'm receiving it, my power. Power that God has given me. The power of the Holy Spirit is so increased for me because I am filled up with more of his love, more of his grace, more of his presence mediated to me, and I'm able to participate more with him. it, it, it, it's fuel for me.

It's his grace. Fueling me, and that's what I try to do. Unfortunately, sometimes I have to catch myself, like Christie was just describing. I'll be that person that's running or exercising. There's not enough oxygen. So I'm a doer and I'm a thinker and I'm out there, you know, doing, doing my work and doing my projects and helping people and serving the Lord and forgetting to think about my own emotions and my own needs, and until I wake up and go, oh. I need some empathy and so then I process with a friend or a journal to the Lord or pray. Pray to the Lord. Talk. Talk to. [00:48:00] Oh, I can breathe. I can breathe again. I'm, I'm grounded again. I'm feeling alive and invigorated and, and realize, oh my gosh. It's like I've been living in a, a black and white TV world, but, but there's, there's living color here. This is a colorful world because my soul begins to come awake when I'm in a personal

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Mm

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: where I'm listened to I'm, and I'm cared for. And then that gives me the strength and the energy to be more, more discerning and more strategic in my work, smarter about what I'm doing, and have the capacity to really love other people more helpfully. Remember, he 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: mm.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: to awaken to God's presence with me. He's like, yeah, he, he knows what I'm feeling.

He felt this true. Jesus felt grief when I'm feeling grief. Jesus felt grief. He has empathy for me in my grief. Jesus felt frustrated at times. You can hear in his words, he's frustrated with his disciples. They're not getting it. Well, I was frustrated with my staff. They weren't getting something and I thought I had [00:49:00] transferred it really well, and then I learned, oh, they, they're operating on a different vision than I'm.

And so I had to kind of wake up to that and realize, okay, Jesus, you're with me. I, I, I, I was tempted to turn myself, I guess I failed in conveying the vision or, you know, but then, oh, nope, you're with me. You know what? It's like You felt you into this frustration too. The, it awakes us to Christ with us.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: You gave more adjectives that I, that I love. Awaken, energize, empower. I mean, if somebody's not fired up about empathy right now, I don't, I don't know how they'll ever get there. 'cause this is you, you painted such a beautiful, clear picture of what it can do for us. Uh, when we receive it from God, when we give it to ourselves and when we extend it to others, it is absolutely transformational.

Oxygen energy for our souls to help us do what God's called us to do. Um, so, and, and for people who are wanting to learn more, where this [00:50:00] is wet, their appetite about empathy, your book is coming out. We'll be releasing this episode right around that time. So we'll post links to Deeply Loved so you can find out more.

And then also, would you share for just a moment about the Soul Shepherding Institute.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: Yeah. So our, uh, ministry is all about, yeah, come to a retreat with us. Eight times a year, Chris and I lead, uh, a group of, uh, pastors, missionaries, spirit, spiritual directors, church leaders, uh, their spouses, about 50 of them. And, uh, Stephanie, you and Danny have been with us. We've been so, so blessed to have you in our community. And so when you come on retreat with us, uh, we give you empathy. We give you teaching from the scriptures on spiritual formation and soul care and life with Jesus in the kingdom of the heavens and how to be, uh, helpful in, in our ministry, our mission, our work without burning out and all, all these kinds of things.

But to have that in a community, that's an authentic place. And where every day you get five hours, we [00:51:00] call TLC time. To love Christ and we mentor you and how to use those five hours so that you get the rest you need, you're rejuvenated and you can go deeper. We need, we need to go deeper into the things that God is showing us, listening for his voice, maybe getting outside in nature and letting God's beauty just wash over us. And so everybody that comes on a Soul shepherding retreat. They never leave tired. Uh, sometimes we go to conferences and we get great information, which is wonderful, but we just leave exhausted. we, we learn a lot in the soul shepherding retreat, but nobody leaves exhausted because we give you so much time to absorb and to be in conversation with other people, to meet with a spiritual director, Bible study, prayer, all kinds of just really renewing rhythms together and community. 

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: And this is accessible for missionaries who live overseas as well. You might, they might be listening and think, well, I can't get there in person. I mean, if you can't get in person. Go, I would say, but I've done the retreats both in person and online when I wasn't able to go in person. And that's an option as well.

So if you're [00:52:00] overseas and you can't make it there in person, you can still be a part of it. And you guys do such a great job of making it a really rich experience for people online, which is unusual. I've been a part of a lot of online things and you feel often like you're not there, but you guys do such a great job of just talking.

Straight to those of us who are there and making us feel like we're we're a part as well. So I would say yes. Make it to one of those retreats. Connect with a spiritual director. Go to soul shepherding.org. Sign up for the emails. You guys are prolific in sending out emails and writing articles and producing content.

That are really helpful in us learning how to take care of our souls. So I just wanna say thank you to the both of you. It is always a treat to have you on, you are our most frequent guests we have on here. It's, it's just, it is what it is. I love having you guys on and you know, I'm gonna have you on again at some point again in the future, and I'm just again, grateful for the work that you do.

So from all of us missionaries and for those who care for missionaries, thank you to the two of you.

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: [00:53:00] Oh, it's our joy. And thank you to each of you missionaries that are serving God, where he's placed you, where you're being faithful and you're cos suffering with him. We so respect you. We love you, we pray with you, and we're so honored to be able to be partnering with Modern Day Missions through this podcast.

Stephanie.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Hmm. Thank you. It's such a joy to have you both. 

Bill & Kristi Gaultiere: We love being with you. Love, love serving with you.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: Hey, missionaries, I've got a question for you. How are your finances on the field? Also, are you feeling supported by your senders? At Modern Day Missions, we make it simple for missionaries to receive donations and for their donors to give. As the largest independent missions organization in the US, we process donations for more than 1100 missionaries to and from countries.

All over the world, helping them get on the field and freeing them to focus on what they're called to do. And we also create and connect missionaries to resources that help them flourish on the field, like this weekly podcast, [00:54:00] fundraising, coaching, and our resource packed newsletter. So connect with us at Modern Day dot org to explore our free resources and discover how we can serve you.

We're so glad you joined us today. 

Mhm.