Secrets, Shame, and the Risk of Telling the Truth: The Silent Battles Missionaries Face with Dr. Janeen Davis

Whether it’s pornography, mental health concerns, faith struggles, same-sex attraction, gambling, or emotional collapse—many missionaries are silently asking: What would happen if anyone knew?

In this episode, Dr. Janeen Davis joins us to talk about the silent battles missionaries face—and what it takes to tell the truth when shame tells you to hide. We talk about how secrecy steals your strength, why we’ve created a culture of judgment instead of grace, and how to become the kind of person—or organization—where confession leads to restoration, not rejection.

Whether you’re facing your own struggle or walking with someone who is, this conversation will help you move from fear to freedom, secrecy to healing.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn

• Why secrecy around “unmentionable” struggles can slowly erode your spiritual and emotional health
• The unintended ways our missionary and church culture creates judgment rather than restoration
• How shame silences people—and what it really takes to break that cycle
• The difference between gossip, venting, and biblical confession
• What safe, grace-filled restoration can look like—for both individuals and organizations

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Chapters

• 0:23 The Hidden Struggles of Missionaries
• 3:05 Common Silent Battles
• 6:45 The Impact of Shame and Secrecy
• 13:47 The Culture of Judgment in Ministry
• 29:57 Finding Hope Through Confession
• 42:34 The Path to Restoration
• 52:48 Closing and Resources

Transcript

0:01

Welcome to Modern Day Missionaries, a podcast created for missionaries by missionaries. I'm your host, Stephanie Gutierrez. This podcast is brought to you by Modern Day Missions, which services more than 1100 missionaries in over a hundred nations, with an exceptional fundraising platform that makes support raising simple and seamless for missionaries and donors. Some struggles just feel too risky to say out loud. As a missionary, you're in a position of influence. You represent Jesus and the church. But what happens when your inner life starts to unravel when you're battling things like pornography, depression, same sex attractions, spiritual doubt, and the fear of being disqualified keeps you silent. In today's episode at Dr. Janine Davis joins me to talk about why missionaries often keep secrets, the cost and rewards of sharing them, what restoration could actually look like, and how to become the kind of person or team that makes it safe for people to come clean. If you've ever wondered what it would cost to finally say it out loud, this episode's for you.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 1:05

Janine, it is so good to have you back with us on the podcast.

Janeen Davis: 1:09

Thank you so much, Stephanie.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 1:13

We always have such a good time and we're always talking about conflict and like spicy subjects and I love it. I love it because, um, we were just talking about this beforehand. You have this really fun side to you and you're this peacemaker and we talk about really controversial or difficult things and that combination I think is powerful and it's probably one of the reasons I just. Enjoy you so much and why I think you're called to do what you do, Janine. That's just my

Janeen Davis: 1:39

you so much. Yeah, I really do just wanna have fun, and I don't know if this is a useful reference, it's pretty old, but there used to be this show on TV called The Biggest Loser, and it was a bunch of fitness coaches helping people rapidly lose weight, maybe in an unhealthy way. I don't know. Um, but. There was one coach on there, Jillian Michaels, who like really screamed in everybody's face. And I was like, man, that's the one I would want.'cause I don't want anyone to put up with my baloney. Um, and I wanna be like the gentle Bob, like, you know, kind and, and patient. But I think what I need for myself is the Jillian, like hardcore, let's go, go, go, you know, kind of person. So as, as is, uh, a little bit, I think the theme of what we're gonna talk about today.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 2:24

Mm-hmm.

Janeen Davis: 2:25

We are complex. Nobody's just one thing. And sometimes there's different versions of us. The version of me that wants the hard, um, don't put up with any excuses, kind of, um, coach for myself versus the type of gentle patient person I wanna be for others. And, uh, sometimes that self version can accidentally slip out in the wrong direction, so I have to watch that.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 2:50

Well, and yeah, and like you said, you just alluded to that we're talking about spicy stuff again today and, and it's stuff that I think it's applicable. We don't be spicy for the sake of being spicy. We talk about challenging things because we wanna help missionaries. So for all of you missionaries who are listening, I. We are gonna go into some of these silent battles that you guys face, like confession, control, shame, I mean, some of those kinds of things. And the courage to be known, why it's hard to find some of those safe spaces and how we can find them and how we can be those safe spaces for others. So Janine, I just wanna kick it off like what are some of the struggles missionaries carry that don't fit into the normal Christian box? Like the kinds of things we feel like we're not even allowed to mention here, but we're gonna mention them.

Janeen Davis: 3:35

Okay, well then that's a fun way to start off. We'll definitely start with sex and sexuality. Like, it's gonna be all the things, it's gonna be all the things that you might have learned from a young age, um, are not polite, uh, public. Topics for conversation. These are the things, and so the challenge is have we ever learned to talk about these things? Maybe no. Maybe all we've ever learned is don't ever talk about it. That's we, we carry so much into our mature adult Christian lives that are really just the childhood version of things that never got revised. And so there are areas of our lives that I think stay in immaturity. Of course I think of that as it relates back to the conflict space. We have a very childlike framework for understanding forgiveness a lot of times, and thinking apologies are something that can be mandated by my mom, and so can also be mandated by hr. And we just like carry these ideas forward and they're, they're childish. They're not matured into a deep relationship that starts with the Lord and then flows out toward others. And so in these topics as well, we live. With, with big pockets of our lives that are not allowed to be said, the things that must not be named the unmentionable things. And I think a lot of it is because we've never learned how to talk about those things and it feels very high risk. And we've seen, we've seen it cost people when these things are exposed.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 5:13

Oh yeah. I think every missionary knows a story of somebody who was finally brave enough to bring something to the light and they got pulled from the field or they didn't, and then it just like completely imploded and blew up their ministry. And I wanna just say too, like we're not talking about this stuff to be gratuitous. Like so we can just have a. Be like, Ooh, we're wild on this podcast. No, we're talking about this.'cause it needs to be talked about. We're talking about, because otherwise missionaries are being yanked from the field too soon or they're imploding out of fear of speaking about them. Okay, so you mentioned one sexuality. What are some of the topics in sexuality that we feel like we're not allowed to talk about as missionaries?

Janeen Davis: 5:54

Well, anything that you can think of that would make you blush is on the list. Any words, any topics, these are the things and we all know them. And the challenge is that we're gonna need to move the line, particularly because, um, I. It is undeniable that exposure to pornography is happening across the board at pre-adolescent stages, which has a long term effect on people as they grow, you know, as they move through, uh, puberty and adolescence and into adulthood when they have been influenced by high speed, rapid access. Um, to specifically things like pornography or, uh, commonly for women erotica. Um.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 6:43

And explain what AKA is if somebody might not know

Janeen Davis: 6:45

Well, we might just differentiate that between, um, a visual stimulation for pornography and more of a storyline and, um, space for filling in the gap and inserting yourself into the, the, the main character of the story, uh, as erotica kind of storylines, more storylines than visuals in terms of what's, what's prompting that? Um, uh. Response

Stephanie Gutierrez: 7:14

Which could be like a, a romance novel or it could be a, you know, an erotic television show where there's a lot of romance and sex

Janeen Davis: 7:23

I didn't think I was gonna talk about this, but here's an exa, here's a real real example from from the field. Um, I don't know how many I. People understand this concept of maybe a mission, uh, uh, a guest house. There's, uh, like places around the world where, where if you're on the field, you know, you have kind of access to guest housing where it's maybe run by an organization and it's a place that we can stay or when we're coming somewhere from medical or whatever. Okay, so guest house. Concept that is often stocked with by the missionaries for the missionary kind of stuff. And I remember there was an annual meeting once where um, the women were separated from the men and that generally has a tone of the men have stuff they're supposed to talk about. So the women I. Should, I guess just talk about something too, but we don't really have the agenda of the guys, you know what I'm talking, like, has anyone been a part of that? Okay, so the women are chitchatting and I bring up, uh,'cause I'm member care, so I'm, I'm, I'm leading this situation. Uh, and so we bring up the topic of shame and what it is to live with a secret shame and how that can isolate us, which is certainly what we're talking about, Stephanie. But in this topic, somehow what comes up. Is the content of the books in the guest houses. Because if you bring up, uh, romance novels that I started with erotica, and then what we have to understand is back in the day there when there was Christian bookstores, physical Christian bookstores, and I know that digitally, now that's, it's a different thing. But there are authors whose names come immediately to my mind that their whole career is Christian romance novels. And what became apparent in that day, it got a little out of hand and almost turned into like a book burn, book burning or something like that. But because people were like. If we're gonna be honest about what women are primarily using, uh, in kind of a different form of pornography, which we didn't have the, the words to say erotica at that point was it's Christian romance novels because they're stirring the heart and it's creating this wonderful fantasy of a romance. And the women are. That is, that is creating the effect in women. That was the very thing we're talking about. And they're like, we need to get these outta the guest houses. And, and again, I am actually not trying to put a template on anyone that says, um, I. Where I feel conviction and where I might struggle. The world needs to accommodate that. And let's go ahead and burn all the Karen Kingsbury books or whatever. I, if that's something like that, you know what I mean? Like these, these something, there's, there's a Christian theme in the romance novel that, that somehow made it are, what are you thinking when you hear me say this, Stephanie?

Stephanie Gutierrez: 10:15

I'm to totally intrigued'cause I like when I said romance nobles, initially I was, I was thinking of the ones with like big old sex scenes in them, but you're mentioning just romance novels in gen, not even in general Christian ones. And that's an interesting thought. I think that to me makes me really think about how temptation is so specific to each person and that's where it is. It's not a black and white thing. So something that's like maybe innocent to somebody else can stir something in you. So. Yeah, this is okay. This is a good opportunity for all of us to go, okay, what actually is this a temptation for me? What actually is dragging me down and how can I not impose that on somebody else? But be honest with myself.

Janeen Davis: 10:51

So an area of shame can be, um, this sense that Christians, good Christians should be immune to certain things. So the shame in this kind of a setting would be. If apparently all the other Christians can read Christian romance novels and just like, praise Jesus for how that rugged against a man came to the Lord halfway through, or whatever the storyline is, you know, then, then what's wrong with me? That there's arousal here and there's something, there's, there's, there's a additional. Feeling laced with that, that, that I think is bad and wrong. I can't say that. I could never confess that because that's perverted. I mean, if we're really gonna say the words where there's a lot of shame, the things that we're not supposed to say at the dining table, especially for people that have really lived. Most of their lives in the Christian culture in some way, there are things that they have never experienced a mature or righteous con conversation about. They've never heard it discussed, and so it feels like anything, anything in the realm of talking about desire or arousal. very shameful. Something that must be hidden because there's an instinct. I've never heard about this. This has never been discussed in any church setting. I've never seen any big books being recommended by everyone about this, so this must be something horribly wrong with me. I can never tell anyone about. Now I see this.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 12:29

too because like, so I'm thinking as you're saying this, like the, the more of a good girl or good boy that you were per se, and I use that term, you know, loosely on the field, your shame threshold is lower. So if you haven't had maybe a lot of these experiences that other people haven't had, even things that might feel like, what are you kidding me? How's that even a big deal to you can, can produce shame in you? You know, my mom and I used to always like laugh. This is like. Kind of related, kind of not like we would always say, you know, good girl's gotta rebel somehow. So we wouldn't wear name tags at small group events. You know, like, like we're not wearing name tags or like, you know, sit in the back sometimes and we're like, my gosh, we're so bad. But like my point is when you have been good and not all missionaries are the way we all come from different backgrounds, but I think sometimes you end up on the mission field and you've kinda lived a more straight laced life, at least for some of our missionaries. Yeah, you're gonna maybe experience shame, um, very easily. And what's the product of that? You're not gonna wanna talk about it, like you said. So maybe a good question for us is, what are we not wanting to talk about? What is producing shame in us? What are we keeping quiet about? We think if I told somebody they would think it was so bad. Hmm, this is good.

Janeen Davis: 13:47

I think what you just said is really important, and I think this is really where I wanna go with this topic. And we can be patient as we go there, but this is an important thing, what you just said, they're gonna think, I'm so bad. We do have an innate culture of judgment in the church and I think that is really what fuels this. It's not, it's not not knowing how to talk about these things. It's understanding that if you say certain things, you will be judged.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 15:20

Yeah.

Janeen Davis: 15:21

And that, I think that is the, the lack of familiarity and practice of confession partnered with the lack of familiarity and practice of non-judgment. They go hand in hand in, in an outcome. Then that is that we do not have regular practices that we're seeing in church communities of real. Repentance and confessing our sins to one another. So when we sense that a sin is, uh, socially unmentionable, you know, one of those things that, that we don't talk about over the dining table like

Stephanie Gutierrez: 16:03

Yeah,

Janeen Davis: 16:05

that, we, we then assume if I share this one, there will be consequences and. And, and it's judgment. Judgment is one of the core consequences. I mean, I think there are things that we are comfortable talking about over the dining table or around any small group group. Well, I hope at least any small group, but, but struggles with common struggles that don't have as much of a stigma to them, like depression and anxiety.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 16:39

Oh, I was gonna say like an easy one, like overeating people, like, oh my gosh, look it, I ate too many brownies again. It's like, ha ha, ha, ha ha. Like, we, we

Janeen Davis: 16:45

back on the diet. Yeah, sure.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 16:48

Yeah. But like, okay, you've just brought up anxiety and depression. I mean, that's starting to, it's becoming more acceptable now,

Janeen Davis: 16:55

Yeah.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 16:56

kind of riding that line.

Janeen Davis: 16:58

Yeah. But I think that, I think that at least people can admit, maybe more so with anxiety than depression actually, but people, there seems to be an acceptance to that, that. It's so undeniably prevalent everywhere, and especially in younger populations right now, that there's no point in having judgment about it because apparently everyone has anxiety. Right? So I think that this, the prevalence removes some stigma, but when we're not aware that the prevalence of pornography use and, and feelings of compulsive and addictive patterns of pornography use, we're not aware that that's. Way more prevalent than anxiety. So we're not aware of the prevalence. So then we think it must just be me. There's something wrong with me. I'm gross this, these and, and plus how it, where are these things experienced? We can experience anxiety in public settings. Go ahead.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 17:55

sorry, I have a question for you. Do you think it's because we. Perceive anxiety as being something that kind of happens to us or depression as something that happens to us because of our environments, whereas something like pornography or same sex attraction or any of that, that that is like a choice that we make. Is that the perception

Janeen Davis: 18:16

I think that could be a great insight. I think. And, and surpri. Interestingly enough, it's not true. Like if I'm treating anxiety, I'm I am or any of these kind of things, I say a phrase like this often, which is your emotions are the product of the story you are telling yourself. So if you wanna feel different, tell yourself a different story. No, that is different than how we may initially intuitively experience things like anxiety or depression or anger or frustration or irritation. Is that external circumstance that thing made me feel this or that or the, the, the school schedule of my, that my kids are trying to keep up with is making me anxious. Right. Like, so we perceive it as something that's that. Is exogenous, like it's, it's originates outside of us and happens to us rather than an endogenous experience that that starts from within. And so a lot of times counseling is helping us. Feel empowered to change it by realizing there are things happening inside of me that I, I can, I have the power to change that can then help me to experience, um, less of this, or not experience it like this anymore. But you're right. I think some of these things that seem more shameful, um, and less mentionable maybe can be. More easily explained as there's something wrong with me, which of course is a way of understanding what is. Shame is I'm bad, as opposed to guilt I did something bad. Shame is I am in my essence bad, unacceptable,

Stephanie Gutierrez: 20:02

It's weird how we classify them. You know, it makes me think of, I remember reading the book Freakonomics years ago, and they were talking in Freakonomics about this study they'd done and where they were comparing kids dying of, okay, and I'm, please nobody get mad at me for saying this. I am just saying a study. So don't, I don't wanna get e email me, give me feedback. But don't get mad about this. The, the study simply showed, um, uh, kids dying from guns in homes and kids dying in. Uh, pools, uh, from falling into swimming pools and homes, and they were just looking at the facts of things. There was no political, the whole point of the book is they're not political. They're just looking at studies and they were showing how um, kids are more likely to die of drowning in swimming pools in their homes. And they were saying that, that's just hard sometimes for us to conceptualize because dying of a gun. You know, from a gunshot is a violent death where a swimming pool, there's just something equally tragic, but it just feels, somehow, it feels less, like it's not violent in our minds. And so we, there's just things that we do with that because of that. And, and same thing like, okay, so let's think about emotions. You've talked about the emotion or the experience of, um, anxiety or fear we could say is an emotion. And then there is the emotion of anger. So. Currently, anxiety is acceptable to talk about. Anger is less acceptable because anger, again, I think it feels more violent. It feels it. It creates a different image or picture or story in our head. And same thing, like you think about pornography or masturbation or same sex attraction. It creates this picture or story in our minds that we don't wanna see or think. Whereas overeating or other acceptable things like you talked about, we're like, Hey, that's just. Something we all deal with. It doesn't feel dirty or violent. Does this make sense what I'm even saying here?

Janeen Davis: 22:02

Absolutely I, when you mention anger as an example of maybe a less acceptable emotion to admit to, that surprises me or, or that that challenge is a way that I think about anger. Because I frame that as something that I hear people eagerly and readily express, primarily through social media, where it seems like our go-to way of talking about any opposing I. Viewpoints to our viewpoint on a topic as with anger and condemnation. And actually I think that directly feeds into the instincts that we have, that we cannot show up authentically in our local body of believers. We're here for mutual discipleship and yet we cannot show up fully, authentically in that setting. Um, I think partly because of very common. Patterns that we have that show that it's not safe for you to say certain things. We're gonna come down hard in advance with our judgment and condemnation about viewpoints so that everyone will know. They better not, um, endorse that viewpoint because we preemptively, um, excluded it as a possibility for Christians.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 23:29

Righteous anger is totally acceptable. We, we

Janeen Davis: 23:31

Oh, that's, that's right. That's what we call it. Righteous anger.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 23:34

yeah, but don't talk to me about being furious with your kids or furious with, I mean, there's, there's again, some things are okay, some things are not okay. And I do think some of it has to do with consequences. Like the consequences of certain things are. Certainly, uh, bigger than others, but still, sin is sin and struggles are struggles. So what do we like, what do we do with all this? I'm a missionary listening to this, and I'm like, okay. Like, yes, I, I totally resonate with what you're saying, but like, the reality is if I bring some of this stuff up, I do have to deal with the consequences of that. What do I do?

Janeen Davis: 24:14

Okay. I think that's really important. Talking about consequences and maybe first, let's start by considering what our. Biblical role is in one another's lives, is it to, um, create fabricated consequences for each other to induce moral choices? I, I'm gonna propose No, it, what is the role that God calls us to play in one another's lives? Is it to induce just. Create consequences that will, um, assure at least me, that you will operate as I believe you should. And if you don't, there will be punishment.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 25:04

so I punished you to make myself feel

Janeen Davis: 25:06

I think it's a way to control each other. I think it's a way to control the narrative. I think it's a way to control lifestyle and a lot of this we might say is biblical, but we have very little comfort allowing. Other people to land in different lifestyle places that do not directly connect with a specific command from God. But the challenge is we want it to, right? We want to live our lives, um, out of conviction and we often. Learn those convictions from our families of origin and our upbringing, and it's all twisted together with morality to the point that then we think all of my lifestyle convictions are biblical. Which means if you land in a different place, uh, that's not, that's wrong. You are wrong and you're not being biblical or you're not being a good Christian. And I, I kind of want the Christian world to align with my view of how Christians are supposed to act based on really just the home I grew up in or whatever. So I don't want you to be allowed to do that. You know, I wanna just say a neutral, stupid one. Um. Like, I don't want people to be allowed to wear shorts to church. People should show respect. So if people do that, because I want to instill in my kids a sense of kind of more formal and humble reverence to the gathering of the body and to worship, I wanna instill that in my family and in my kids. And I do not want someone else out there. Doing something that undermines this message that I'm trying to say, which is good Christians show respect and reverence to God in, in their words, and even in their dress. So this person can't be wearing shorts because it's undermining this, this kind of simple absolutist way that I want my kids to understand the world. And so I'm gonna make comments. I'm gonna make comments maybe to other people, but certainly to my family. I can't believe that way that person's dressing. Here's what I think we do this, this is all over the place, and this is something that I wanted to talk about with this idea. Where does this come from? Why do we have a problem of confession? I think it's because we've, we've chosen to have a culture of, of judgment instead of a culture of confession. I don't think you can have both. I, I think that people will, whether we, we agree that they should or not, like human nature shouldn't be this way. Okay, that's helpful. That's fun for you to say, but that's not, that's not helpful and it's not, doesn't do anything human. This is just how people are gonna work, whether you like it or not, is if they believe there's gonna be judgment and consequence for them being honest and transparent. They just won't be honest and transparent. So what you haven't done is you haven't actually won their heart. You've just shown you are not a safe place for them to be honest and transparent, or maybe the church is not, which means all of those things will never have a chance to be worked on to be. To be wrestled with the help of brothers and sisters, they're gonna have to carry that alone because we've decided we would rather just be very hard-nosed and say, absolutely not, and this is not okay. And if somebody does this, we're gonna, there's gonna be punishment and consequence and judgment, and there's gonna be effects of this. W what we're doing then, what we have to realize we're doing as, as a church or as um, a ministry team on the field. When we make hard statements that rule out someone's ability to struggle with something, we are not actually helping them, not struggle with it. We are just telling them they have to struggle with that alone and they have to be fake and act like they're not. That is effectively what we are doing as we have this culture of judgment. So.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 28:57

Yeah. So, okay, Janine. No, that was really good. Um, so what things, so, so, okay. Missionaries are, are oftentimes overseas or on the field or in a different setting. So like the struggles just feel amplified sometimes, you know, when they're in those settings. So what struggles should missionaries. Try to struggle through it with support on the field and when do they need to, to be pulled or to go back?'cause I'm, we've got, you know, two listeners, our primary listeners are missionaries and then of course we've got our member care folk and they're going, okay, but when is it time where they really do need to be off the field? Or I've, I've talked to some missionaries recently who they're like, we don't know that we can fight this battle here where we're at. How do you make that distinction? Struggle here. Struggle there.

Janeen Davis: 29:51

I think. We're, we have to, we're dealing with a few different factors. One is this idea of qualification for leadership. So if we see missionaries as people that are in a leadership position, then we're going to have a certain standard of righteous living. A standard of submission to God's word and God's commands that we want them to be following in order to be a sent out ambassador of the gospel essentially. Because effectively on the field, uh, we are, we are often innately in leadership positions, in the eyes of locals. Even if the ones that would send us out are a little mixed feelings about. Us being in leadership positions on the field that we wouldn't be allowed to hold back in the States. But I'm not gonna go down that path right now. Either way, we are in leadership positions. We're seen as extra authoritative in cross-cultural environments a lot of times. So that goes into what are the qualifications for someone to be in a position of authority and influence and leadership and what? And then this is where it starts getting tricky. What type of sins are they allowed to struggle with and are they not, I mean, are we holding them to the qualifications for elders or or what? You know, and I think, here's something that I think about because I am the one that people say things to that they can't say to other people in their lives. You know, as a counselor, I hear a lot people telling me that this is the first time they've ever told anyone these things. I hear that all the time,

Stephanie Gutierrez: 31:39

same.

Janeen Davis: 31:40

which means these things are going on, whether you want to let them go on or not, and that, I think that is just a, a fact that I wanna keep coming back to is we, we are not truly removing these struggles from the lives of missionaries by telling missionaries they're not allowed to have these struggles. Are you, are you following me? I, we are naively thinking that if we say, well, missionaries, we, missionaries on the field are not allowed to struggle with pornography. If you're struggling with pornography, then you need to go back home and deal with that. Or, um, wherever the line is. If you, uh, cross the line while getting a massage in Southeast Asia, like, I'm not trying to again be inflammatory, but I'm just trying to think of the most common

Stephanie Gutierrez: 32:31

to be real. You're being

Janeen Davis: 32:32

Then you're, you're gonna need to deal with that off the field. We're not gonna, okay, fine. You can say that, but what is the result of that? Does that mean that anyone who crosses that line leaves the field? I'm gonna tell you as a fact know. It just means that when people, when people cross that line, they, they hold it as a secret shame and they don't tell anyone and they stay on the field. Almost always,

Stephanie Gutierrez: 33:03

Hmm.

Janeen Davis: 33:04

um, unless they got caught at one point like that. But, but usually that's not the first time. They don't get caught the first time, which means what you're really doing is saying the worst sins that you can struggle with, you're not gonna get any support for. We will support one another with mild sins, but major sins. We are effectively gonna require you to keep those secret because we refuse to tolerate. Admit that Christians struggle with this, and if you do, you we're gonna punish you. We're gonna send you away. Well, okay. I think there's just a little bit of naivete happening. We want to believe that good Christians are okay struggling with these deeper character formation things, but we're generally on the path to holiness, and we don't want to consider the possibility that someone is more than one thing and is conflicting things at the same time. But I believe that is possible and. Not unusual. Someone can love Jesus and want to obey his word and make a horrible decision or be stuck in a compulsive behavioral pattern of pornography. It's just such an easy example of pornography. But a new growing trend is gambling, addiction and deep debt, and they can love Jesus and also be caught up in a pattern of, of gambling. And we want to believe that a good mature Christian doesn't have that struggle. They can have this struggle, but they don't have that struggle. And this is based on cultural, um, comfort. This is what we're comfortable with and not what we're not comfortable with. This is not based on reality. And I think here's, here's something, if, if we can get down to, to some core elements of this. Here's some things that perpetuate this that are psychological truths, universal psychological tendencies, and, and very easy to observe. There's a human tendency that we all have toward oversimplification and dichotomous thinking, which means as, as human beings, the way our, I'm not trying to be secular here. I'm saying the way our, our, the organ of our brain is wired and works is for efficiency, rapid. Quick understanding and the way that our brains are able to understand information, all this information in the world very quickly, is through, we might use the word stereotypes or categorizing things, putting things into big, broad categories. And the way this becomes problematic in our relationships and with within the church is we wanna categorize people as good or bad. And so, I mean, is that enough to just say it like that, holy or corrupt? And this is, this is done on a large scale. This is done on a local scale. We want to oversimplify things and put people into maybe one or two boxes and putting people into boxes and the way that we demonstrate to one another that we put people into boxes, perpetuates this pr, this pattern. So here's what I mean by this, and I think this is, this is maybe challenging and can. Possibly convicting, but also important to say because it leads to what do we do about it. Okay, so I'll say it as like a challenge. Maybe we need to try to stop handling tidbits of information we have about one another, or people in our small group, or our church, or church leaders or our denomination or on the national news as though that one piece of information gives me the authority to define someone by it.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 36:54

Hm.

Janeen Davis: 36:56

Say that's who they are and that's what they're worth. Oh, I, you know, whatever it is, you know, the, uh, yeah, a denominational leader, someone that's, that has a large platform and is speaking about some Christian topic like within Christian circles, and they say that. So when I demonstrate to people in my circle that I am. Confidently willing to reduce that person who's an image bearer of the creator, God called the same as me by his mercy to be his child. And I think that this piece of information, this theological stance, this political stance, this whatever, gives me the authority to reduce them down to my judgment about that, and then talk confidently in my judgment of them. Is teaching and re reinforcing in our community that that is what you can expect too.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 38:00

Hmm.

Janeen Davis: 38:00

That we are going to reduce people and their worth and their value and their whole character, their complex character, down to the sum of one, maybe the worst thing they ever did, or the sum of one struggle that they're having. Oh, that guy or that lady. That did that or said that or believes that, yeah, I don't want you to be around them. Like their whole character is defined by that one thing. And I think that's important to realize that there is a deeper, broader consequence to these patterns of the way we talk, especially about people that maybe we don't know. Or the, the pastor of the church or someone else at the church in our family car on the way home. That's more of an maybe American setting, maybe not, but the way that we give ourselves permission to speak with criticism and judgment and condemnation about another person as though that's what they're worth. They're just the sum of this. One thing that I don't like, and I'm confident and able to speak like that. What we're doing is we're reinforcing every day. An underlying message that is if you step outta line, I'll do the same to you.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 39:16

Wow. What an important place for us all to just begin, like to, to just take an evaluation of our words. What is it that I'm saying about people? Um, and especially people who have fallen in some way, shape, or shape or form.'cause we all have, we all have sinned in so many different ways. Pro every single day. And so what are the ways that we're talking about others? Because you're right. That's, that's what we're teaching our kids. That's what we're teaching our teammates when we speak that way. And we're reinforcing that message in ourselves. You know, I was thinking as you were talking Janine, about, um, soldiers that get sent off to war. And how when they come back so often they have a physical or an emotional, um, injury of some sort. And we're at a place now in society where we're not shocked by that. If a soldier comes home and has PTSD, like there is some grace that's extended there because we're so thankful they put their life on the line. And when I think about that in terms of missionaries, it almost feels like. Could we do the very same thing because we lauded these missionaries and put them up on these pedestals? Um. There are these amazing people who have gone out to fight the war, to spread the gospel, to do the thing, and the second they fall, all of a sudden we're shocked. Like we're just shocked. And I'm like, why are we shocked? I mean, you and I have lived as missionaries, so we're not shocked. But other people, they're shocked that they've fallen when they've actually gone to some type of a battle. So the likelihood of them experiencing that kind of stuff. Actually, I think goes up. That's not an excuse for any type of sin for anyone. But golly, it, it helps us extend a lot more grace if we can realize they put their life on the line for the gospel. Could I be a little bit nicer and sweeter and more grace filled as I help them through whatever it is that they're going through?'cause I'm not rescuing sex traffickers on the other side of the world. I'm not living in a community where this. Particular temptation is rampant. I'm not feeling that type of particular stress on my family and marriage. If I was, if we just think like, what if that were me? If you're, if you're not a missionary listening to that, what if that were me? What would, what would, how would I react? And if you're one of the missionaries who didn't have that temptation and you came back still, it's not going well. I didn't, so it doesn't mean that they should. Well, maybe you served at a different time or God gave you a different kind of grace, or you have a different type of personality. Um, but yeah, thank you for bringing that up.

Janeen Davis: 41:51

Yeah, that's good. It's like it's, we need to assume that soldiers and, you know, and people in the spiritual battle are gonna come home wounded. And the only question is, you know, in what ways rather than when they fall and, and they struggle in certain ways. If it comes out to say something like, I thought I knew you. Is the most naive and unhelpful thing to say because it means that one, one piece of information about them or one failing in their life redefines everything else about them. And thank God for the gospel of grace that says the opposite.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 42:28

yeah.

Janeen Davis: 42:29

You know that I'm not defined or limited to the worst thing I ever did, but rather I have hope and I'm in progress. I'm not just a static sin and that defines me and that's who I am now. I'm not static. I'm in progress. And so I'm struggle with different things at different times. Some acceptable, some unmentionable maybe, but, but if we can have just a, a better understanding of. The course of life rather than judgment about someone being in a Valley Valley expect it and not think that it undermines everything else that we, that we knew about them or entrusted them to. I think one thing that that can motivate us is, is this idea that when you name something, it loses its power over you.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 43:17

Yes.

Janeen Davis: 43:18

So the, the gift of confession, which is a command that God has given us, like this is his, these are his gifts to us for our good is when we, when we do find community, and maybe we do little tests along the way to see how do, how do people respond with this and that, and are they, is this mutual? Are they taking risk too? Are we growing in vulnerability to the point that we've learned? They're here for me as my brother and sister and fellow, fellow traveler in this journey and race that we're trying to win. We're not trying to find penalties on each other. On along the way. We are running to win and we want each other to win. So, so as we can grow in trust, we can, we can. We can earn that in one another by, by being mutual. And a really important thing to understand is I don't get to do that if I'm not allowed to name the thing. When it, when it goes unnamed, it still has power over me. But to name something, to say it out loud immediately has this effect on us that I'm not as bound by it anymore. So that's, that's, I think that's just an important thing to, to think about. Yeah.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 44:29

we can't keep this stuff inside. So for any missionaries who are listening, who are dealing with any of the things we mentioned or anything else, like getting it out, saying it, and maybe that is with a trusted friend, maybe that, um, maybe you have a space in your missions organization where it is safe to say that and you don't have that fear of them pulling you. That's amazing. Maybe you do. Well, there's organizations like Vallejo that provides counseling where they get missionaries or we, even at Modern Day, we have two, um, we have two counselors who provide free counseling to missionaries and they're not connected to any organization. So there are spaces to have these conversations, but it's. Gotta come out. And I think too, we have to just get like tired enough of our sin that we are willing to take the risk to say that. And I know that that's easier said than done, but like, what's the option to live with this and let it slowly eat me away from the inside or take the risk to find a space to be able to share that. Um, do you have any thoughts on that?

Janeen Davis: 45:32

Yeah, I mean, I think that's, we want it from both sides. We want to encourage people to take the risk because your, your life is at stake. You can just sit here and, and, and live holding the secret shame and struggling with things indefinitely, or you can name it and. We wanna encourage people to, to recognize the value of confessing, even if it's scary. But we also wanna encourage the same people and everybody else to like lower the risk, don't make it such a costly thing, and that that comes with deciding that, you know what? There may be natural consequences to this sin, but it's not gonna come from me. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to hold this oversimplified version of them. I'm not going to define them by this. For the rest of our relationship, I'm gonna recognize, yeah, this is one thing about them and this struggle. This struggle is real, but everything else I knew about them is also still real and, and they chose to trust me. So my response rather than. I can't believe that and I'm so disappointed. And how do you think, how do you justify that Biblically? No. My response is, whoa. Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you for trusting me with that. I'm gonna sit in that space with you. I'm not your jailer and your prosecutor and your judge, and now I'm gonna decide what the consequences need to be. Honestly, I think it would be okay to let the Holy Spirit work in them and let our role just be to, to sit with them in that space and walk alongside of them and maybe ask questions like, what is the right environment for you to, to overcome this and how can I support you in that? Do you think that you need to. You, you know, consider, um, surrendering even your call maybe and consecrating your calling to ministry right now, consecrate, as in to submit to the rule and authority of God and just place it under his other, his ruling. Like, will you surrender even your calling to the Lord for his holiness and for the sake of your sanctification and, and transformation like.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 47:45

Yes.

Janeen Davis: 47:45

What do you need to do to, if holiness is the goal? Not job stability, not, um, respect and honor from people that may not respect you anymore, but like, if holiness is the goal, what do you need to do? And how do I help you be brave and obedient to walk toward that rather than, I'm sorry, I'm gonna, we're gonna need to remove you from ministry. Like, not that, not

Stephanie Gutierrez: 48:11

restoration.

Janeen Davis: 48:13

Yeah, if the goal is restoration, you know it's God's glory and, and I'm not denying that there are some struggles that there's just not the support available to work through that on the field, but more and more in our virtual world, maybe there is. I just, I would love for us to slow down from being fast on consequences and slow down and, and allow that person to have more of a role in those kind of decisions where we're sitting here and we're trying to fix our eyes on God and his glory and his holiness, and let that be the thing that influences any decisions rather than, um, here's our decision.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 48:58

And Janine, you're calling us into a messy, into a messy

Janeen Davis: 49:02

Oh, it's so messy. I'm

Stephanie Gutierrez: 49:03

it is. And organizations like black and white and rules. And if this happens, and this happens, and this happens, and I understand because there's legal implications that people get concerned about, or there's like, well, if this happened and I didn't say something about it, then what? And that that is a reality of the world we live in too. And so what I appreciate about this conversation is you are not giving people an exact thing to do. I think what you're trying to do is challenge people to think in a different way. You're trying to challenge missionaries to take that risk and find those spaces and. Saying You're not alone in this. And then with people on the care side, challenging them to not just default to what's written in the booklet, maybe have even as an organization, have some new conversations like, how could we handle this differently? How could we handle this on more of a case by case basis rather than a knee jerk? This is what we do because like what is more beautiful than a restored Christian? Than a Christian who has been through something? Horrible and on God's brought them through on the other side and they have a story to tell whether that was a crisis that happened or a sin that they walked through. When God redeems and restores you, like he just amplifies your story that much more. Now, we don't seek out sins stories so that we can have a great story on the other side, but God and His grace wants to use those and how sad if we're losing out on all of those stories and all of those lives, and like you said, people who. Whose lives and stories are so much bigger than the mistake that they made. So thank you for bringing this in and going there with me. And I'm sure we've ruffled a lot of feathers today. And I, I know we're both okay with it. I'm a harmony and peace gal, so there's a little piece of me that's like, oh, I hope you still like us and know our heart. And also if you don't, that's okay too.'cause if this stirs conversation, good. Good. Let's have the conversations.'cause we want missionaries to thrive on the field, so we're looking for every way we can to help make that possible. So I love what you do, Janine. I love what you have to say in the way that you say it.

Janeen Davis: 51:09

It's always fun, isn't it? I mean, if we're gonna give somebody one thing that they could do, whether they're struggling with an unmentionable or just a normal or anything, how do we go deeper and how do we start to invite deeper layers in our relationships with brothers and sisters? Is maybe start talking about instead of, you know, what are you, what is, what are you hearing about in the word or how can I pray for you? That's going to typically prompt pretty. Sanitized answers. But what if we say, Hey, if you think about what, what you're looking at on your phone and social media and, and entertainment and, and who you're talking, talking to, anything about these days, any part of your life, if you're looking at all the parts of your life right now, uh, what part of your life do you feel is least conse consecrated to the Lord right now?

Stephanie Gutierrez: 51:55

Hmm.

Janeen Davis: 51:56

And let's have that conversation, you know, and, and let's lead with vulnerability. I think somebody has to go first, no matter which side you're on with this, somebody has to go first, so let's go first and let's, let's just benefit so much more from this wonderful sibling relationship that God has invited us to have with one another. That's, that is my exhortation for the day.

Stephanie Gutierrez: 52:20

Amen. What a great note to end on. Janine, thank you again for coming in, challenging the way that we think, as you always do, and, um, in, in a really Holy Spirit inspired way, I believe, and given us new things to, to do, to think and to pray into. I appreciate you.

Janeen Davis: 52:37

Yeah. Thank you. You too. It's always a pleasure.

Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez: 52:42

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53:30

Mhm.