S07E28 The 5 Stages of the Missionary Life Cycle with Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter (Encore Episode)

What makes a strong family culture on the mission field? How do you keep your values intact when everything around you is shifting? And is it possible to raise emotionally healthy kids overseas—without losing yourself in the process? In this episode, Jonathan and Elizabeth Trotter spill the tea about the joys and challenges of parenting abroad. 

From bathroom disco lights and jet-skiing through monsoon floods to grief, transition, and adolescent pushback, they share honest stories and practical tools for keeping your family grounded, connected, and even playful in the midst of cross-cultural life. 

If you’re longing to raise thriving kids and stay sane yourself, this one’s packed with the wisdom and grace you need.

Connect with the Trotters: www.trotters41.com

In This Episode, You'll Learn:

• How to identify your family’s “secret sauce” — and what to do when you realize you’ve lost it.
• Why routines and rituals (yes, even Saturday showers) are a lifeline during hard seasons.
• What to say to yourself when your teen suddenly wants nothing to do with you.
• How to balance ministry and family without sacrificing either (spoiler: it starts with a pre-decision).
• What MKs really need to thrive — and how to create a culture that supports them long-term.

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

Website: https://www.modernday.org/podcast

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LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/moderndaymissions/

Chapters

• 0:54 Meet Jonathan and Elizabeth Trotter
• 3:04 The Five Missionary Life Cycles Framework
• 7:09 Stage 1: Pre-Field - Idealist vs. Ignorant
• 22:53 Stage 2: Arrival to Year Two - Learner vs. Survivor
• 29:21 Stage 3: Year 2 to Year 7 (Established or Workaholic)
• 38:59 Stage 4: Year 7 to 99 (Experienced or Pessimist)
• 46:49 Stage 5: Learner vs. Know-it-all (Full Circle/Final Stage)
• 48:10 Conclusion and Resources

Transcript

Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter

[00:00:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to Modern Day Missionaries, a podcast by Modern Day. Missions created for missionaries by missionaries. I'm your host, Stephanie Gutierrez. How long have you been on the mission field? Did you know that the challenges you're dealing with and the way you see things are probably more like what others in your state are going through than you might realize? Jonathan and Elizabeth Trotter break down the five stages of missionary life they've noticed over the years. And they also walk us through some of the common struggles and opportunities that come with each stage. We talk about the ups downs and everything in between.

[00:00:37] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to this episode of the Modern Day Missionaries podcast. I am so happy to have Jonathan and Elizabeth Trotter with us today. Welcome you guys.

[00:00:45] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Hello, thanks for having us.

[00:00:47] Stephanie Gutierrez: It's great to have you both. We were just chatting earlier…when I was living overseas, I think A Life Overseas was the first missions blog that I ever came across and look, I'm, I'm skipping ahead of the introduction. They have a connection to the blog, A Life Overseas. I'm going to get to that. Here they are, Jonathan and Elizabeth.

They are the authors of Serving Well, and Jonathan recently wrote a new book called Digging in the Dirt, a fantastic book, and after serving in local church ministry for 10 years, they served as cross cultural missionaries in Cambodia for eight years before returning to the States during COVID. And Elizabeth leads the cross cultural conversation at A Life Overseas, that blog I just mentioned, which you’ve got to check out. And she continues to homeschool their children. They've got two in college. We were just talking about these two at home right now. And then while they were in Cambodia, Jonathan served as a pastor at an international church and provided pastoral counseling at a member care center. And he continues to provide member care for people living across the globe and is currently finishing his master's degree in counseling. And they've been married for 24 years and have four children. You got me beat by two, you guys.

[00:01:56] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: we're losing to some, and that's all right.

[00:02:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: It is. I feel like there are a lot of missionaries who have really large families. We did not fall into that category.

[00:02:05] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: There are a lot with four. There are.

[00:02:09] Stephanie Gutierrez: I missed the memo on that one. You guys got it and you're killing it. Yeah, two in college, two at home, two boys and two girls, you were saying as well, right.

[00:02:17] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: You know, the boys are at college and the girls are still at home in high school, junior high

[00:02:22] Stephanie Gutierrez: So the household must feel quite a bit different.

[00:02:25] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: A lot quieter. Oh, it's A lot quieter. And the grocery bill is tapering down as well, which is handy when our girls are like, there are leftovers. Who ever thought that there would be leftovers?

[00:02:43] Stephanie Gutierrez: so there's some pros, I guess, even though the, the cons of having them, having them

away. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So we were talking, I was reading Digging in the Dirt this past month. I've been reading it. And really enjoyed it. And there's this one chapter in there that we're going to kind of hone in on. That was, I think one of my favorites, and it's about the missionary life cycle. And I love Jonathan, as you're writing it, you're quick to say that this was not based on scientific research. This was just some stages that you came up with based on some things that you'd observed. It's, there's a lot of tongue in cheek in it, but I found so much truth in there. I want to hear a little bit about how you came up with these stages.

[00:03:23] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Man, with the genesis of this article or this chapter, do you remember talking about that? Um, I, we were living in Cambodia and I know that, and I think you were just, you were working with people and just kind of paying attention to stuff. I am. I know that I amuse myself sometimes by just having thoughts rolling around.

And I think, um, I was getting, I know I mentioned, or I, I allude to the Enneagram at the beginning of this. Some people like that. Some people don't, but I was doing some reading about it because I had a lot of clients who were telling me their Enneagram numbers as if I should know what in the heck that meant. And so I had been doing some reading about Enneagram and I was like. I don't like the missionary life stage, you know,

stages, the five, what do I say, the missionary life cycle in five stages. Um, and once that type of a thought gets in my head, then it just spins around. I'm like, oh, wait, uh, uh, uh, uh. And, you know, it's kind of formatted like the Myers Briggs where there's like two alternatives. Each stage has. Um, sort of, uh, if you're successful in this stage or if you're not, or the healthy version in this stage and maybe an unhealthy version in this stage. So it just kind of, I think, was birthed out of me being bored and also just observing the people that I've worked with. Are you laughing at me? I get bored sometimes and stuff comes out.

[00:04:44] Stephanie Gutierrez: It’s so helpful when somebody says something and gives a name to something that you've been feeling and experiencing. And I think that's what you did here. You weren't trying to create a scientific model, but you were giving language to experiences that you were not only experiencing yourselves, the two of you, but that you were seeing other people experience also. So I feel like as people listen today, they're going to really enjoy it too. So to listeners, as you're listening, think about what stage you might be in or what cycle or stage you're in within that cycle and all that. And I should just let you guys go ahead and explain what those five stages are within this cycle.

[00:05:21] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: So in a brief, brief overview, the five stages are pre field, arrival to year two, year two to year seven. Year 7 to 99 because I'm a dork. and then the last one is a learner to know, uh, learner versus know it all. So when you go back to the pre field, and then those that stage gets split into those two options pre field, you've got either the idealist, uh, or the ignorant, uh, and then arrival to your two, you have either the learner or the survivor. Year 2 to 7, you've got the established, uh, or the workaholic.

And then the year 7 to 99 is either the experienced or the pessimistic. I think we've all met both of those types of people. and then the last stage is again, kind of a review is kind of a catch all it back to learner versus know it all. Um, and so we'll, we will talk through that some more, but that's the broad overview of those 5 stages.

[00:06:24] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. So everybody's listening like, Oh gosh, which one am I in?

[00:06:27] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

[00:06:28] Stephanie Gutierrez: and which is the bad one, by listening to the

words, but I mean, yeah, let's unpack that a little bit. Cause like you said, if we can identify where we're at a little bit, I think it gives us language. I think it normalizes it. Cause we can recognize, Oh my gosh, other people are going through this too. I'm not the, I'm not the only one. And then it gives us some tools I think to move forward. So maybe you created it tongue in cheek just for fun, but I think it's actually really helpful.

[00:06:54] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah, good, good. Um, so back to the pre field. So stage one would be the pre field. Um, the two options are idealist or ignorant. And I, I just want to say, like, we need the idealist and there's a temptation sometimes for folks who have been around a little bit longer to sort of poo poo both. The idealist and the ignorant or at least to lump them into the same category that the idealist is the ignorant and that's not necessarily true. um, we need the idealist. Those are people who have, uh, lots of just grand visions, you know, they're going to save the world and they really want to and they're very good hearted. Um, and they're interested in connecting with people who've been before them and that they're not, they're not just Um, they don't know stuff, but they are, they are willing to learn, which is where we get to in the next one.

But what do you, what do you think about the idealist? Yeah, I mean, I think I wrote about that early on. Like, I think you do have to have idealism. You have to have a big dream. And that was part of what made me want to go to the field was hearing about, you know, big movements of God in different places within our organization. Um, and I think you need that as that push to get you there. I mean, if you don't have big dreams, why are you going to sell everything and go to a different land?

[00:08:21] Stephanie Gutierrez: Isn’t that the truth?

[00:08:22] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah. I, so again, I, I want to really value the idealist. And I, I make the distinction in here that one way to tell the difference is that the idealist, Knows that there's a lot that they don't know.

The ignorant person isn't even aware of all the stuff they don't know. Again, the idealist is like, yeah, hey, there's, I have all these dreams and visions and stuff. And I know that I don't know that much. So I'm going to reach out for help. The ignorant has that same sort of sound like, I'm going to go save the world, but they just don't, they're not even looking. They're not even asking questions.

Um, and I, I used to work as an ER trauma nurse years ago. And there was a doctor there who said, the eye doesn't see what the mind doesn't know. And, uh, he, you know, in the context of ER medicine or emergency nursing, you're not even going to see the symptoms if you don't recognize that those are part of a larger picture illness. And so that's, that's a life or death kind of thing. When you're at the triage desk, if you can't piece together, these three symptoms mean this really bad thing, you're going to miss stuff. And so I think the, the ignorant person just, they don't even see. Because the mind doesn't even know, but the idealist knows what they don't know.

And so like in the ER, for example, um, that is the person that doesn't know, but they're going to ask the people around them who have more experience. They're going to, they're, they're, they, they know that they don't know. I don't, does that make sense?

[00:09:54] Stephanie Gutierrez: It does. And it sounds like one has humility and one doesn't. One is, is actively looking to find things out. And the other one is going in with a bit of a savior complex. Like I got what it takes already. I know I am the one who is coming to save you all.

[00:10:12] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: yes, yes.

[00:10:14] Stephanie Gutierrez: So does somebody then make…I mean, just some thoughts, cause I know this is, again, it's not scientific, but how do you think somebody can make sure if they're in that pre-field state that they lean more into that idealist side rather than the ignorant side?

[00:10:29] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Well, I think this is where training comes in. So getting good missions training ahead of time will give you a lot of tools for both preparation and for kind of how to deal with that culture shock when you get there.

Um, And another thing you can do is whether it's on your vision trips, or once you move is to find out who is there, who is working, what they've been doing, you know, what's working, what's not, so you can really get an idea of, like, kind of the spiritual landscape that you're living in. Yeah. I think that pre-field stuff, the training and things.

[00:11:02] Stephanie Gutierrez: I agree. And I was going to say as an idealist, I think one of the things I love about idealists is their energy. I mean, their vision, they're just contagious to be around. They're so much fun.

I know sometimes for people who are receiving idealist, let's say they're coming to be a part of your team. Um, some people love it and some people get irritated by idealists. Like, we've already been here, we know how it works and you're, you know, driving us crazy, like with all of your big ideas that we've literally all tried. How can somebody receive an idealist well, help them feel valued and  also send them in the right direction?

[00:11:39] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah, so that's jumping ahead to the, uh, year 7 to year 9, the experienced person. And what I write in here is you might hear the experienced or the older person say to that younger person,

well, that could work. But the few times we tried it that way, it didn't work. Do you want to talk about some alternatives? Where the pessimists there would be like, yeah, try that, it won't work, just like what we tried doesn't work, because nothing will work, this ground is rocking hard, blah, blah, blah. So, I guess I would answer the question by saying, welcome the idealists, and recognize that they have energy, and you may have wisdom. There's actually a song that's in the movie Selma, um, about Martin Luther King Jr., I think. John Legend maybe sings it and he says something in there. They says we need the wisdom of the elders and the young people's energy

And I, I love that because it's, it’s saying actually both of those demographics are bringing something very valuable to the table and we shouldn't exclude them. I think one of the reasons that experienced people do have that sort of negative reaction to new people, a new idealist, is because they lump them together with the ignorant. And we've, we've seen a lot of those people. Come to the field, flash and then be gone. And we're not real interested in spending a lot of time or resources in the flash that we have seen. What happens to that. And so I think that's one of the reasons why distinguishing at that front side is so important. Um, and you, you said it real succinctly when you said like, uh, humility is one of, uh, the big differences.

And I think that's, that's probably a very, that's a much easier, shorter way to say it. Um, is that, yeah, if a person comes to the field knowing that they don't know. And they're humble enough to ask questions, then they're a lot safer.

I think there's an aspect also of, um, bitterness that when we have disappointments, because ministry doesn't always go the way we want it to go. And if we don't work that out with God, and I mean, it's, it's, it sounds strange to have to say, Oh, I need to forgive God for something, but in our hearts, we kind of do because he doesn't always do exactly what we think. And I think that that can lead into that kind of treating the idealist, um, less than kindly because we actually have stuff to do in our own hearts.

[00:14:10] Stephanie Gutierrez: Mmm. What a good point, Elizabeth.

[00:14:13] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: You know, and there's the classic thing that that is advice given to parents, like, remember what it felt like to be. You know, young, um, I'm teaching my second kid how to drive and it's like, how do you not know this? Like what, you know, what I want to say is like, why, why, what is wrong with you? But of course, that's the wrong, like, how in the world would they know?

I've been driving for a lot longer. So all these things that just come naturally to me. Did not come naturally to me. Um, and trying to put myself into that place of being completely overwhelmed with all of the new information. Uh, remembering that helps with empathy, right? If I can put myself into their shoes, if I can remember that I was in their shoes, um, then that's helpful.

And also, I mean, there's some brain science that would be helpful for the person who's been there for a while to know, and that is that the brain can only process a certain amount of information. And when a person moves to the field, their brain is trying to soak up as much as it can, but it cannot soak up indefinitely. And so young, younger or newer people on the field max out and they, you know, they say wrong things or they do wrong things. It's just, I'm reminded, I'm reminded because that, that works. I mean, that works, that fails. On the return side too, because we returned during COVID and we've, we've talked about like writing an article. It's like, I'm sorry about what I said when I was in transition,

[00:15:51] Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh, my gosh. Yes.

[00:15:54] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Because, when you're maxed out and the whole country was, you know, in the U S was, well, the world was fried with all the changes that were happening with COVID. And then, you know, we were, Unexpectedly transitioning countries.

Boy, there were some things that we said and did that I feel really, really dumb. it was like, I, I just did not have the capacity emotionally or psychologically to, to handle all of the change. That was happening in our family, going back to school, all that stuff. But that's what new people on the field experience,

[00:16:31] Stephanie Gutierrez: It is. And the stressors are high. And no, I actually love that. I was, I was just reading an article by the Gottman's this morning. I know we're both, all three of us are Gottman fans and they were really talking about that experience of when your stressors are high and everything's elevated. It, it kicks your, your mind and kicks your body into a self protection mode. Like I am in danger. I need to self protect. So now I'mreally focused on myself. So I'm saying weird things. I feel like everything is an attack against me. We just start to get a little weird and it's, it's not something we can necessarily skip out of. We can become self aware of it and get other people to help mirror that back to us. But like you said, that transitionary stage, whether it's going there or going back, we're going to be a little squirrely.

You know, I remember we used to run an internship program when we lived down in Peru and we would have every year a new group that would come down for about six months. And like what you guys are talking about, there was be stages and kind of cycles they would go through. There'd be that honeymoon period where they were just all nuts, you know, and so excited and wanted to do everything and talk to everyone and try everything.

And then because it was six months, it was almost like it was a compressed version of longer term missionary. So then they would actually probably have a shorter honeymoon period because then they would hit their crash and they'd go, cause I have six months, so I'm going to go full blast, you know, for these first two months. And they would go so hard that then they'd kind of hit like a, a depression point and they'd get kind of sad and it'd always be a lot of tears. Everybody would just be like, Oh, we're in the crying phase. Lots of, lots of crying

[00:18:03] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yes. 

[00:18:04] Stephanie Gutierrez: for the, for the external process,

[00:18:05] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: that happened in transition. too,

[00:18:07] Stephanie Gutierrez: of the transition phases, but it was, it was interesting. We started to notice it. And so that way we could kind of prep them for it.

But you're, you're accurate in that pre field or new missionaries are in transition. When you're pre field, you're transitioning because you selling everything and giving things away and fundraising. You're not living your normal life. So you are a little. a little weird. Let's just be honest. So for those people who are those, um, idealists, would you recommend a few things they could do to communicate maybe better with the people they're coming to serve?

How can they control that? You don't want to stop their enthusiasm because that's just, it's fun, but how can they maybe improve their communication skills so that they are, uh, work a little bit better with the people they're coming to serve?

[00:19:01] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: um, with the local folks or sort of with the missionary population that they're arriving to serve with.

[00:19:08] Stephanie Gutierrez: Great question. Uh, I'll let you guys pick which one you want to answer on that.

[00:19:12] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: I think with the missionaries, it's just kind of the stuff we've been talking about, like trying to find out from them what's going on, and when you have an idea, you kind of couch it as this is an idea, not like the way we have to do it. Um, I know language learning is like something that's really recommended to get in right away, and I know that can help. Too, and just like acclimating you to the environment and the way that the local people think 'cause language. It's like the way they think is embedded in the language. Yeah. Uh, that's true.

Um, I, I think a practical thing is to really watch for dogma or dogmatism, um, as the newer person there because the, there's a temptation to say, oh, I see this clearly. Everybody else doesn't. And so, and some of that comes back to humility. I mean, one of the things I said in the book was, you know, to remember, you're not the first person that God has called across cultures, and you won't be the last. It's not to minimize your call, but to recognize that you're part of a much bigger story. Um, and so I think for that idealist to show up, And seek, if it's possible, to connect with local believers, whether that's local believers and, or the, the missionary community, the people who, you know, very, it's very unlikely that you're going to show up and be the only person in this state or in this country, who's, you know, trying to spread the gospel.

So I think, um, having the humility to show up, watch for dogmatism, but then also get curious about who's where and what are they doing?

Um, I remember maybe our second day in Cambodia, like the only friend that I had in Cambodia was meeting with another guy who had been in Cambodia for about 20 years. Doing like church planting work and we had breakfast with him and I, that was, and then I ended up sort of working alongside of him for a couple of years. And that was so neat. Like day two to then be sitting across with this guy who knew the language, knew the culture, and his heart had been, uh, the same as mine, butfor a lot longer.Um, than I had ever even known about Cambodia, you know what I mean? And so that, that helps, that helps the, the idealist sort of become the learner, uh, which is the, the stage two goal.

[00:21:37] Stephanie Gutierrez: Well, let's jump into that next

[00:21:38] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: yeah, yeah, I mean I, I do think that the idealist, what I say here is the idealist, I mean the learner is the idealist who's landed.

[00:21:47] Stephanie Gutierrez: Hmm. 

[00:21:49] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: It's exactly the same as what we've been talking about. It's the person who has been asking questions pre field. They've been exposing themselves to training and resources and people who’ve gone before them. When they've arrived, they keep doing that. That's a learner. Um, versus the person who has arrived and is just in survival mode.

And I want to be careful, like, we're all in survival mode when we just land, so we're all just trying to figure out where this stuff is, but the, the difference is that the survivor becomes very insular, um, and, and I'm just trying to not die. Where the learner is, yeah, they're still trying to survive, but they are also reaching out of their, out of themselves to connect and to ask questions and to learn.

Um, so that would be maybe a simple way to distinguish between learner versus survivor.

[00:22:47] Stephanie Gutierrez: Which is great. And that's kind of what we were just talking about. You had that tendency and stress to turn inward, to try and figure it out, to try and, you know, protect yourselves from attack and really get focused on yourself. And what you guys are saying is focus outward, look outward, even, and I think it's important to address that too, because obviously we have people from all over the world listening to this podcast, but. A huge chunk because it's in English would be Western missionaries and there is that individualistic tendency to try and solve things on your own and, and, survival does just kind of blind you to anyone who could help you or any other ideas.

You're just trying to take care of yourself and you miss out on so much when you turn inward like that. And so if somebody, whether they're an introvert, whether they're high D on the disc, you know, you can't live by your personality. You can live informed by your personality, but not driven by it. And we, we have to, to go outside ourselves. And I mean, if you're, if you're on the mission field, the hope is that you're in some sort of team. So it's not just you.

[00:23:55] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: No, no, it probably shouldn't be. And the purpose that you talk about, like people just kind of retreating from the world to kind of deal with the stress. But like the purpose of those times of rest is to be able to go back out. So they should be in, they should be in a cycle themselves. Yeah. Retreat, rest, go back out.

And you do get to the end of the week sometimes Friday night and you just can't like deal with anything and you have to be in your air conditioned room and watch TV. Yeah. I would hate to be communicating here that, um, rest or retreating is wrong. Uh, I've written a lot about that and serving well about margin and rest and how vital that is.

And we definitely did that. Saturdays were blocked out as a family day. We really, really did that. Um, we, our kids still talk about the things that we did on Saturdays cause those were just really sacred for us. But we also did like multiple dates, you know, at least once a week. I mean, we did retreat as a family and as a couple, um, to missions, guest house, or, you know, somewhere in the country, you know, hotels or things like that.

Cause they're often cheaper. So, but I love what you're saying there. And the way I've conceptualized it in the past is it's like a wheel. It's like a wheel of ministry. Um, I don't know if I pulled this from somewhere or what, but again, it’s just in my head and that I, I have to sort of, um, retreat from people, connect with God in order to then go back out to people and serve people. But then I have to then retreat, connect with God. Of course, we know this, Jesus did this so clearly, but I think if you only have one half of that, we're like, well, I'm just, I'm spending all of my time retreating with God. you only have half of the wheel and that you're not going to get very far. You can get a little ways and then it just goes flat.

But it's also the same if, if it's all about serving and like retreating is bad or resting is bad and you're just serving people all the time, that too can actually get you a little ways down the road. But just like half of a wheel, it can work for a second and then it's just not working anymore. And I think we've all seen that.

Um, So yeah, balancing that out I think is such an important part of learner versus survivor. A learner still rests.

[00:26:19] Stephanie Gutierrez: I'm glad that you distinguished between that, that resting is not going into survival mode. It's just resting because it's what God calls us to do. And there's a distinction.

And I, you know, as I was listening to you guys, I wonder even if sometimes we kind of go back and forth between those two, like we can be awesome learner mode one day and all of a sudden when we get too exhausted, we get burnt out, we can find ourselves in that survival mode. So it's not like even as we listen to these, like, well, I am clearly the learner one. Well, some days I'm learner and some days I'm straight up survival. But when I'm in survival mode, that tells  me something. I need to get some help. I need to make some changes.

[00:26:59] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Absolutely. I mean, what you're saying right there is you're avoiding the dogmatism of, of this being one or the other. Yes, absolutely. I, I, uh, amen to that because these lines are very porous and it's not about judging. Uh, whether another person is in what stage is saying, like, where am I at and how could I gently nudge myself to the healthier side from, from wherever?

I mean, these are all on a continuum, right? Um, so how can I, tomorrow, how could I be a little bit more of a learner than a survivor? Um, based from the starting point of where I am right now. And that's an important thing to, to think about. To remember it's not a, this isn't a pass fail, uh, thing. Or if you're in the survivor that you have no agency and no power to gently nudge yourself towards greater health. That's just, again, dogmatic and we're allergic to that. We want to be allergic to that.

[00:27:58] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. So what is our next stage and what year does that hit at? I don't know.

[00:28:03] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Let's see. There we go. The established workaholic. Oh yeah, the established or workaholic. That's year two to year seven. And again, this blurry, fuzzy edges. But, um, you know, that's where the, uh, year. What is a year, year two to year seven, where you've probably figured out how to live there. If you've been in language school, you've probably got a decent handle on the language. Um, and you're beginning to do, you're beginning to do the work, maybe that you went to do, or you've been so. You've been given a new task because that's all often true. Very few of us end up doing what we set out to do and that's totally fine. Totally normal.

But there's the difference here where, um, now I am working, am I just establishing the rhythms of a healthy sort of work and family and ministry, or am I trending towards the workaholic? Um, which is just really damaging to a person's soul and to their family, but it also, this is a thing that I've just seen and just drives me crazy, missionaries who trend towards workaholic or workaholism, they set such a, a bad example for local believers or for new disciples. And so then new churches or younger ministries end up just chewing through local believers, young local believers because those people are fired up and they're energized. And then, uh, uh, a missionary who should be established, um, in a ministry that maybe should be established and healthy is actually just working people to death. And I do not like that at all.

[00:29:50] Stephanie Gutierrez: What a great point. What example are we setting?

[00:29:53] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: What example? Yeah. What's the DNA that we're putting in here? And if it's, if it's workaholism, I don't want anything to do with that because that's not, that's not great. Um, you can produce a lot of widgets in a short period of time, but that's not going to be honoring to the kingdom, um, uh, for very long.

And I, I don't think I have this in the book, but a friend of mine told me a couple months ago, we were talking about ministry. He's a local pastor here in the States and his ministry mentor told him, uh, I think I wrote it down in the margin here. Ministry is a great place for bums and workaholics, but you might not be able to tell which one is which.

[00:30:34] Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh, say more about that.

[00:30:36] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah, so ministry is great for bums and workaholics, but you can't necessarily tell which one is which. And I was like, oh my goodness, that's so true. Because we're so afraid of, like, missionaries just, you know, Robbing the system and just living in tropical places and never actually doing work. And I think I have met a few, I think I've met a few people who were maybe abusing their donors and they weren't actually doing the work. But in reality, uh, and again, I can't tell this always from the outside. Um, but in reality, I think more of us trend towards the, uh, the workaholic side, and, uh, people don't know. Our churches don't know, our donors don't know, but we're just so afraid of letting people down, and we're so afraid of not being approved by God.

I mean, there's all sorts of, you know, psychological, emotional issues that we all bring to the field, because we're humans. Um, but I just do think that the environment of cross cultural work draws, can't draw bums, but I think that's less likely than drawing workaholics. And it contributes to burnout.

Yeah. And so actually, it doesn't contribute to fruitfulness because if you work so hard, you burn out and you need to leave earlier, we've lost all of your experience. You know, it takes like two to five years to get good at your job. And so in that middle time when you're wanting to be established, yeah, if you work too hard, like when you first get boots on the ground or. or in that stage, you might end up needing or wanting to leave earlier than you would have had to. And, um, that's not as good for the kingdom actually. So Jesus example of resting or treating is really important. Yeah. And you know, I think, I think it's motivated. A lot of times it's motivated by a care and concern.

And in that year two to five or two to seven or whatever, you're beginning to see the depth of the need. You, you, you're beginning to know local people at a deeper level, and you're beginning to understand how deep this pain goes, or how big a deal generational poverty is, or how deep are the roots of trauma, of generational trauma.

You're, you're beginning to see that. And the established person, I think, will say, whoa, that's huge. I cannot do this on my own. I need to rest and I also need to get help for myself, but also recruit more people to help where the workaholic says, even if it's from a good motive, there's so much that needs to be done.

We have to do everything. How could I, how could I sleep? People are dying out there. Except Jesus slept, even in the storm. But the, but the, the, I mean, that's a little hyperbolic, but the idea like how could you take a day off when there's people out there suffering? Ah. I know that, but how could you not take a day off?

Because if you don't, um, well, your children are going to be the primary ones to suffer or, or your own soul, of course. So, anyway, those are some of the ideas, um, in that, uh, in that stage. Yeah.

[00:33:52] Stephanie Gutierrez: And it’s such an important stage because I think, I don't know the stats on this, and I wish that I did right now, but I feel like that's when a lot of people, stop or go or go back. And some people go back because, you know, God is calling them back or that's a different, that's a very different thing when God calls you back than versus leaving because of burnout or things are falling to pieces. I mean, you see A lot of. A lot of collapse, I think,

happened in that space for various reasons. so it's, it's one, I think a lot of member care spaces or missionary care spaces invest in missionaries in this season because it kind of feels like if you can make it through this season, then you might be one of those long termers, should God allow, should he keep calling you, but it's a critical, critical season. So I'm so glad that you brought that up. And then that one afterwards is the one that we kind of almost touched on at the very beginning, full circle.

[00:34:48] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yes. Um, did, did you have any thoughts on that? Cause I know you've done some of the reading and research around like attrition and stuff.

Um, yeah, um, there have been different, um, research projects on that. And yeah, I think, yeah, so I feel like the heart of what we want to do in member care, missionary care, So, at A Life Overseas, what you do with people is, is helping them to flourish, helping them to get their relationship with God, right?

And get their relationship with the people around them, because in my anecdotal experience watching, it is those personal issues that brings people off the field, it’s not necessarily what, I mean visa issues will definitely bring you off the field, but like, it's not like what's going on in the ministry as much as like what takes you down is the family stuff, right?

I love the stuff with God, um, you know, the personal issues, which is I think where all of the, like those rhythms, I hate to harp on this again, um, but like having the rhythms to rest with God And to seek renewal and to figure out what's going on, like, in your own heart because And we need quiet time to do that, um, because we don't necessarily know, we kind of have to ask God and like wait And find out, because those things don't get smaller if we don't attend to them, they just kind of get bigger, so, yeah.

And God wants to do things in us, just as much as he wants to do things in the people around us, and the good news has to be good news to us, we have to receive God's love if we want to actually spread it to other people, so.

I know, I kind of talk about the same thing over and over again, but it's like, that's so important to have those rhythms right from the beginning because I really feel like it will help you, um, persevere on the field.

[00:36:39] Stephanie Gutierrez: It's important to you because you've lived it and you've seen it and you know it, Elizabeth. And so I couldn't agree more. If there's something that you can say that would help somebody through that stage,

live it more in a more healthy way. That's key. That's, that's huge. So yes. Thank you for saying it again.

[00:36:58] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: You've hosted several articles, if someone were going to look at a life overseas for like some of the research on missionary attrition, who's the author?

Yeah. Andrea Sears did a big research project. So like a data driven sort of research project on attrition. And they should all be linked. There's three or four articles in the series. I'll get you the exact title maybe for the show notes, but I think it's her blog is like the Missionary Experience, and she has all the data there. Um, I think she's only given us like, you know, parts of data at a life overseas, but that's the biggest one I know of. I know there was the remap 1 and the remap 2 and, but if somebody Googles The Life Overseas, Andrea Sears and sort of attrition, um, they'll, they'll end up in the right ballpark if, you know, if somebody wants to kind of dive into that, but yeah, so this later one, the year 7 to year 99, the experienced or pessimist or pessimistic.

Uh, if I go back to our earlier conversation, the idealist is sometimes prejudiced against the older people, right? Or the longer people. And I think, like, what I said was the idealist is prejudiced maybe because…uh, oh, no, sorry, the older people are often prejudiced against the idealist because they've seen the negative of that. They've seen the ignorant, but I think that sometimes it's experienced pessimistic is maybe the difference about why some newer people. Our presidency gets the longer term people, if that makes sense, because they've seen the pessimists.

Um, not just the experience. I said that a little convolutingly. Um, but if people are tracking, they can work it because there's such a big difference between somebody who's been there for 20 years, 30 years with experience and care and compassion, and maybe still humility. They've weathered some storms, they've dealt with their own grief. If they've been there that long, they have a lot of stories and they have a lot of grief and loss, um, not just the original move, but all of, you know, that all the stuff that happens when you live sometimes in challenging places, or even when you just lived outside of your own country for 20 or 30 years, there's a lot of loss that accumulates. If a person has worked on that, is working through that, they'll be experienced and they'll be willing to teach, versus the pessimist who, uh, what I say here is, the pessimist, to the pessimist, everything new is bad, everything old is bad, because everything is bad.

Which, of course, is very different from the experienced, whose words are a bit more nuanced. Again, coming back to the idea of no dogmatism, it says their words are nuanced. And balanced because they've seen some things work. They've seen some things not work. They know that some stuff's worth a shot. Maybe it'll work, but they're not, um, they're, they're not just angry and, uh, and harsh. Yeah.

So that's, you know, I think we've seen that, but I think that's one of the reasons that young people don't or new people don't reach out to the older people is because they lump the experience and the pessimist into the same camp. And so new people have to be careful not to lump the experienced and the pessimists into the same camp, because those are not the same people.

And I would say one of the things we did, our first six months in Cambodia, Uh, was we looked around and we were like, who are the older people who've been here a while who seem kind of happy? Like, we had four little kids when we moved overseas. So we, and then we volunteered in the international youth ministry. So I was like, who here has teenagers and looks like they still like them? Like, I want to talk with those people and say, how did you do that? Like, what did you do? as a parent, but also as a parent in Cambodia.So that when your children are teenagers, you still have a functioning relationship with them.

So we, we sought out again, I don't, I don't, I, this is just kind of a. I think we've tried to do since we got married young and we tried this in our young marriage to look for the people who look like they're having a good time after a while and like ask them questions. And so that's what we did. We found the experienced people and I'm so glad we did because there were some pessimists.

Um, we found the experienced people and then we asked them if we could hang out with them and they love it because it's truly experienced, kind, humble person is like, Oh, you want to learn from me? Oh, I got, I got information for you. I got, let me save you some of the pain that I've been through. You know, if the person's like, well, we had to suffer. So you have to suffer. And like, I'm like, I'm never mind. I'm going to go. And I feel like, you know, who these people are because your spirit is at ease when you go and you're in the room with these people and just feel like you can tak ea breath because they're so secure in who they are as a child of God, they kind of spread it to you. And, and so it's like, you. kind of find these people by feel like, okay, do I feel the love of God and the grace of God when I’m with you? And then, yeah, find out what they did.

What Benjamin Franklin said, or I think Benjamin Franklin said, like get experience as cheaply as you can. Others have paid dearly for it. Right?

[00:42:36] Stephanie Gutierrez: Ain't that's the truth.

[00:42:38] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Most of the time people want to share it with a learner. They want to share it with a learner.

[00:42:44] Stephanie Gutierrez: And my favorite type of experienced people are also still learners. Cause I think in all those stages are kind of almost cumulative. You don't want to necessarily. lose some of the good of the previous stage. So I'm always in awe when I see somebody who's been in any type of ministry for a long period of time, and I see them ask questions of younger people and still want to learn new things. That blows me away because like,

Obviously, we obviously want to avoid the jaded pessimist. I mean, jaded isn't a great look for anyone, but then you can sometimes find experienced people, um, but they're very set in their ways. And so they're here to teach you and to teach you, which is great. But if you could take it even a step further.

I like you said, Elizabeth, joyful, also Jonathan, fun. They want to hang around you. And then to add to that, if they're wanting to still learn from people above them, from people beneath them, from everybody. That's the kind of person I want to be as I continue to get older and age is, I mean, my favorite is when you see, like, you're in a church service and you see somebody like in their sixties on the front row taking notes and there's like a 30 year old up there preaching. I'm like, you are so cool right now. I want to be you. Cause there's always something to learn and God could speak to us in so many ways.

So, uh, you guys, Thank you so much for coming on and going through that. I want to make sure that, um, you've mentioned a little bit for people who want to dig more, who want to learn more. You guys both are not only fun to talk to and listen to, but you're phenomenal writers. So we mentioned the two books, Serving Well, Digging in the Dirt. a life overseas. Um, how else can people connect with you and where would you send them to?

[00:44:28] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: Yeah. Um, so connecting through Life Overseas is great. Uh, we're both, um, on Facebook. Yours is a bit more private than mine. People can find me on Facebook under Jonathan Trotter. Um, uh, my website is called https://seeingtheheartsofthehurting.com/ . That's where I do my pastoral care, uh, work through. It's through our missions agency.

Our personal website is https://trotters41.com/ We're on Instagram. Uh, I think. Is it my name now? You're not really on Instagram, you don't really care about Instagram. I just don't know how to work it. I'll forward any messages on Instagram to her so she sees it if it's personal to her. Um, but, uh, God bless her, she's not excited about all that stuff, which I love.

[00:45:21] Stephanie Gutierrez: It's fine. I'm on Instagram. My husband's not. We do the same thing. I get messages for him. I pass them on, you know, you, you work it out how you need to. So we'll post links to all of that, that whatever you guys want to share.

[00:45:36] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: You said about the learner thing. And that's the last stage is that learner versus know it all because as I was writing it, I got to it. I was like, wait a second. At the end, we should still be learning. I think of my granddad who was like 85 years old and had never, you know, his business career was earlier at fifties and sixties, whatever.

And he was like sending mePowerPoints and he was designing things and he was trying to figure out computers and all this stuff. I'm like, man, I want to be that. I want to be that guy. Um, as I love what you were sharing there about the learning actually is a thread that goes through everything. And like you said, in the beginning, humbleness is actually. A thread that enables the learning, um, that goes through all of those.

[00:46:20] Stephanie Gutierrez: Thank you for bringing that up, Jonathan. I almost skipped the last stage.

[00:46:23] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: It's, well, it's, it's not really numbered. It's, there's not a, an age to it or a years, a years there. It's just, it's at the end. It's sort of like at the highest echelon. You're still, you actually come back to a learner, to being a learner.

[00:46:38] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. Full circe.

[00:46:40] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: that when you reenter. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Kind of like the way it's like, you need to be a learner all over again. And God has stuff to do in your heart and all that stuff. And you say growth mindset. And so like. Yeah, there's all this stuff that, yeah, adventures God can take you on, so. Yeah, and so we, we love hearing from folks, and sometimes people are scared to drop an email or something like that, but, um, we love hearing from people, so you can, you can check us out, um, on those, those places.

Um, I did start, uh, a podcast where I kind of read through Digging in the Dirt. So that's an option too. I just wanted to make it accessible for folks. Um, I don't have the gear or the time to figure out an audio book, so I was like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna make a podcast where I read through the book chapter by chapter. And so it's just called the Digging in the Dirt Podcast,

[00:47:30] Stephanie Gutierrez: Thanks again so much for coming on and for all you guys have done and continue to do for people in ministry, we appreciate you.

[00:47:32] Jonathan & Elizabeth Trotter: We love it. It's a blessing. Thank you for having us.

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