Struggling Spiritually? Attachment Theory Might Explain Why With Geoff & Cyd Holsclaw

Have you ever felt like you were doing all the right things spiritually—reading, praying, serving—but still felt disconnected from God?

In this powerful and eye-opening episode, Geoff & Cyd Holsclaw—pastors, authors, and spiritual formation experts—walk us through the Landscapes of the Soul, a transformative framework rooted in attachment theory that reveals how our nervous system, relationships, and early experiences shape how we relate to God.

From the war zone to the desert, the jungle, and the pasture, they unpack how each of us connects—or struggles to connect—with God, and how we can begin to move toward healing, wholeness, and joyful connection.

Whether you’re in a season of spiritual dryness, ministry fatigue, or just craving deeper intimacy with God, this conversation will give you language, hope, and a pathway forward.

This episode will change how you see your story, your spiritual life, and your attachment to God—and open new doors of understanding for yourself and others.

In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• How to tell if you're operating in connection or protection mode—and why it matters in your walk with God
• The surprising way your nervous system reacts to spiritual practices (and how to work with it, not against it)
• Why some spiritual disciplines just don’t “work” for you—and how to find what actually helps you grow
• How your early relationships shaped your view of God—and what to do if that view feels distorted
• A simple question to ask yourself when you feel distant, dry, or emotionally numb in prayer

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

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Transcript

Geoff & Cyd Holsclaw

Speaker: Welcome to this episode of the Modern Day Missionaries podcast. Today's episode is kind of a cross between neuroscience, psychology, and spiritual formation, and if that sounds a little heady for you, hang with me because this episode is anything but boring. At the core of it all is our relationship with the Lord.

Why do we sometimes feel like we've hit a wall in our relationship with him, or things just feel dry or disconnected? Well, we look at the way we were formed through the lens of attachment theory, and use that and describe that as landscapes of the soul, which is based on a new book that they've written, which is outstanding. And so we look at what our landscape is, how we were formed, and how that affects the way that we relate to God. And that we don't have to stay there to talk about how we can grow in that, so we can enrich our relationship with God, with ourselves, and with others.

 So much to unpack in today's episode with Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw. They're both pastors and authors. Cyd is a spiritual director, and Geoff has his PhD, so they bring in a ton of knowledge and personal experience, and I'm excited for you to hear what it is they have to share today. I know it's gonna make an impact on your relationship with the Lord. So with that, let's dive into today's episode with Geoff and Cyd Holsclaw.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today.

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, it's great to be here. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: We're really glad to have you guys. I think the way that you fuse neuroscience and psychology, and spiritual formation, connects with a lot of people. It connected with me. I loved it. And just helping people understand themselves more holistically. And so I just kind of wanna dive straight on in today.

I got to read an advanced copy of Landscapes of the Soul, your new book, and it is about a lot of what we're gonna talk about today. It's outstanding. So I just wanna ask you guys right off the get go, why do you think so many people feel like they're doing all the right spiritual things, but they still feel distant from God?

Cyd Holsclaw: Such a good question. Yeah. I know from my own experience, we talk about in the book, and I don't know how much you've talked about these kinds of things, but how your nervous system has sort of a dual depending on what space you're in. So you either prioritize protection, like protecting yourself from the world around you, or you prioritize connection with other people. And we don't often do those very well together at the same time. So I think the thing that we all struggle with that and what we don't realize, is that we live much of our lives in that protection standpoint, and when we try to reach out to God and connect with God out of that protective posture, and it is really hard to perceive that God is available or that he wants to be with us or that he's interested or that he wants to hear. 

And so I know for me, I think a lot of times I would go into prayer or I would go into reading scripture, but I didn't realize that I sort of had that protection priority upfront. Maybe it was because I just had a conversation with someone that I hadn't released or Geoff and I had a little interaction in the morning on my way to reading the Bible, or whether it was because I was just feeling like, well, the last time I prayed about this, I don't sense that God heard anything. And so I go into it almost feeling defensive or anxious, even as I enter into prayer. And so I know for me, a lot of my life I spent praying out of protection, and having a hard time getting any sense of God wanting to connect with me. And so that was my experience, and when I would talk to other people about that, so like if I would talk to Geoff about that, we would go into protection over different things. 

And so, some of the suggestions that I got for how to prepare and come into a time of connection with God were not helpful to me because they were from a different perspective than what I needed, based on some attachment filters and some attachment strategies. And so the reason we wrote this whole book is that not all discipleship pathways work for everybody. After all, we're all starting from different places. So we really have a heart for people to understand sort of what is the landscape you find yourself in your sort of attachment landscape, and how are you surviving in that landscape, and how do those particular survival strategies sometimes impact the way that you're trying to relate with God? 

Stephanie Gutierrez: I love that you use landscapes as illustrations or analogies for these places we find ourselves in with God, because it's just nice to have a visual. So, thanks for using something like that. And as people listen, and we will get into those landscapes, they can maybe begin to identify where it is they find themselves in. And you're so right, Cyd, what you said about people connecting with God in different ways. I mean, I was talking to someone the other day who was saying breath prayers are just really hard for them to connect with, and yet I know other people who, oh my gosh, it's like their favorite way to connect with the Lord.

And I'd love to unpack what you just referenced there about connection and protection. Can you say a little bit more about that? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Your nervous system prioritizes connection and protection; they're both needed for survival, so they're both God's good design. We either need to connect with other people because relationships are important and people are there to help us get our needs met, to co-regulate with, and to resource us. But then we also need to be able to protect ourselves when there's something dangerous or threatening. So, you know, that's where you get into the fight, flight, freeze kind of responses that you hear in a nervous system. We don't realize that that happens a lot more throughout the day than we really understand or recognize. And so when you're in that protection place, your body, your brain, all of your resources are being devoted to keeping yourself safe, which has a very much of a me focus. This is where you end up turning the other person into a problem rather than a person. It's where you're turning a situation into something that has to be figured out rather than something that can be just noticed. And from that place, it's a very different kind of thing, and you can even experience emotions from a protection standpoint or a connection standpoint. So anger in a protection posture is very different than anger in a connection posture. And so it's just a way of sort of thinking about, am I prioritizing other people and my connectedness to others right now, or am I prioritizing taking care of myself and making sure I'm okay? 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. And others are necessary to navigate through life.

Cyd Holsclaw: And to be able to go back and forth, like, we often talk about it like when you're driving a car, the gas pedal and the brake pedal, you need both. You have to be able to do you're not gonna get where you're going. So there's nothing wrong with living under protection. It's only when you don't realize you're doing it that it can be problematic. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Right, or always living outta protection.

Geoff Holsclaw: Like one of the really important things about connection and protection is that we're filtering information differently when we're in those different modes. It's really interesting. So physiologically, when you're in protection mode, like you're hearing will shift and pick up different frequencies. And they filter out people's voices a little bit more. And so you're hearing the tone of voice differently. You're focusing on different parts of the face. Two people could be in the same environment, the same room, like the same worship service or the same, you know, family gathering, and if someone's in protection mode, they're filtering that whole experience differently than someone else who's in connection. 

And so, this is where, like, people were like, I loved that gathering, and everyone else is like, I hated that it was the worst. Right. You know, and so it's a way to just kind of understand. We had a gentleman who would always read scripture. In our previous church, we'd do a lot of public reading of scripture, and he always read scripture with an angry tone of voice. So like, whether it's Jesus or in the Psalms, it was always like angry, and it just felt like he was always filtering life through that protection mode. And it's just like, I don't know, maybe Jesus was like more compassionate when he said that than this guy would give the tone to. And so that's an example. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: That's a great example. Or you kind of, you know, mentioned a gathering beforehand. So I'm picturing somebody going into a gathering in connection mode. They're like, oh my gosh, who am I gonna meet? Who am I gonna get to know? What kind of conversations am I gonna have? If you go into protection mode, it's like, you know, is, are people gonna like me? Who's gonna try and take advantage of me? Who's gonna try and be a cool kid and exclude me? I mean, it's gonna make you see…

Cyd Holsclaw: This person? 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. And so I love that you mentioned that because it's good for us to just be aware of what mode I am in right now, and are there particular signals that will let us know if we're in connection mode or protection mode? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Definitely. Yeah, there's, you can ask yourself the question. First of all, can I be curious right now? And if the answer is no, you're in protection. So that's a simple one. For people, different signs will show up differently for me. If I'm in connection mode, my jaw gets tight. I'll notice like tension in my hands, like almost like I wanna grab things or make a fist. I might notice my breathing getting shallower. Those are some things that I notice, but mostly that question of am I looking at the person across from me as a person, or am I looking at them as a problem to be figured out or to be solved? And that goes along with that curious question. So, if I ask myself, can I be curious about what Geoff is trying to tell me right now? And if the answer is no, I'm not feeling very curious, then I know I'm in protection. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay. That's so good. So if I'm closed and if I'm feeling tension in my body, it's a signal of protection mode; if I'm open and I'm curious, a signal of connection mode most often. Okay. 

Geoff Holsclaw: There is also an acronym. The cake acronym? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Oh, yeah. C.A.K.E. is curious, appreciative, and kind.

Geoff Holsclaw: And we always forget the “e”.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Empathetic.

Cyd Holsclaw: It's like, and no, it's like envelope conversations, which is you start a conversation with appreciation, then you know what the thing, what the problem is, and then you end again with appreciation. And that comes from Marcus Warner and his rare leadership book. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay. I love that. It was an envelope. I wasn't even close. It's like all of these words and then an envelope. 

Cyd Holsclaw: I know that's what always trips me up, too. I think that's right. I'm now, I'm gonna go back to the book later and be like, oh, it wasn't an envelope, but, yeah. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: It gives us all something to research later. It's all good. So, another thing you talk a lot about in the book is attachment theory, and I'm thinking some of our listeners may have never heard of attachment theory before. Could you give us a simple explanation of that, and kind of talk about why that's important to us in our spiritual lives? 

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah, I'll jump in with that. S,o attachment theory goes back like seven years. It's a very well-researched psychological kind of science and theory, and it starts out from the attachment bond between a parent and a child. And whether it is like attuned and responsive kind of attention to the needs of the child. And if it is, if there is like an attuned, responsive, and appropriate kind of. Interaction between parent and child, and that's, you know, over time, that develops into a secure attachment. If there are other interactions that we can get into that would create what became known as the three kinds of distinct insecure attachments. And what's that, whether it's secure, insecure, your body and your brain, and your relationships, kind of get structured in a certain way. So your nervous system. 

So, for what Cyd was saying about our connection to protection, the ability to stay in connection mode even though you're at some sort of moderate level of distress, is higher. And so you can kind of keep that connection regardless. But if your nervous system is kind of structured in a certain way, then you also have, so that'd be like unconscious or implicit, but then you also do kind of have these conscious expectations that are formed about how relationships work, what can I expect of other people? What can I expect outta myself, and is the environment or the world I am? Safe or is it unsafe? And so you have what are called mental models, which are a little more conscious, not always super conscious, that help you navigate the world. And so you could have what is called a secure attachment.

There's what's called insecure, what we call, or rather, anxious, or what we call the jungle. Then there's avoided attachment or what we call the desert, and then what is called disorganized, which comes from a traumatic or an abusive kind of upbringing, which is called disorganized in what we call the war zone. 

Cyd Holsclaw: And I think the thing that's important to notice is that we're not born with fully formed nervous systems. Our nervous systems are still developing in our early years, and it's your awareness of your environment around you that. It's being shaped and formed through those early relationships. And so we all emerge from childhood slightly different. And so I think the thing that we care about in writing about attachment is just understanding my mental models in my head, of what I perceive as safe and dangerous, and what I believe about the world around me. What I think about myself and God is not the same as someone worshiping right next to me, or someone in my small group, or someone on the mission field, right?

We all start in different places, and we hope that an awareness of how those attachment bonds affect us. Even our physiology would give us greater compassion for one another, and be able to meet one another more compassionately and curiously like Jesus does. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Yes. And so listeners, if you, if you are hearing this, some of you are nerding out and you're like, oh my gosh, tell me more. Some of you are thinking, This was a lot of words I've never heard before, and I'm not sure what to do with all this. If so, hang with us. I mean it is complex, but also it's not, I mean, essentially what you were saying, Geoff, is somebody with a secure attachment is, like you were saying, Cyd, curious. I am safe. I know I'm okay, so I can go out into the world and experience some risk. I can experience trying new things because I know that I can go back home and I'm safe. I see the world overall as safe, even if I recognize there's danger in it. 

And then we talk about those insecure ones, which I know you guys will get into as we talk about the landscapes. And it's important. Like you guys said, because it helps us know how we are seeing the world. Otherwise, you bump up against people and you're like, you know what?, I came into this gathering with expectations that everybody's gonna like me. And you came into this gathering and see something, you know, suspicious, and you're seeing something around every corner. Why do we see the world so differently? And when we can identify these landscapes or these attachment styles, it gives us empathy for ourselves. It gives us empathy for others, and it gives us an opportunity to grow, which is what you guys talk about in Landscapes of the Soul. It's not about finding where we are, and that's just where we are. No, it's about getting to a new place. 

One other thing before we get into landscapes that you talked about that I love is the foundation for a secure attachment. You talk about this one desire that we all have, and I'd love to ask you about that. 

Cyd Holsclaw: Right? Yeah. That one desire that we all have is for joyful connection, and God designed the family to function to provide that as a foundation for that joyful connection with God. And so if you think about everything is going well for a family, and it doesn't always go this way, but if everything is going well, you know, a woman finds out she's pregnant, she's probably in a good, solid relationship with her husband. They find out that they're gonna have a baby, and that begins the anticipation of the day when they're gonna get to hold that baby in their arms. And so, ideally, each one of us is born, and immediately when we're born, there are faces of joy that are so glad that we're finally here now. We love Jim Wilder's definition of joy, which is the experience of being with someone glad to be with you. 

And as an infant, that is supposed to be a regularly occurring experience for us, that the adults in our life, the people, our caregivers, siblings, even, are rejoicing that we're here now, they're glad to be with us. They sort of exude that gladness. You see that in this joyful, smiling back and forth. And just all the different things we know about how far a baby can see, and like babies are always looking for faces, looking back at them. And then when you start seeing a baby learning to smile and starting to give joy back, you know, I mean, is there anything more delightful than being able to play hide and seek or smile at a baby? And they have this full body laughter where like it's not just a haha, it's like arms and legs, you know, limbs are going crazy. There's this like chortle of joy that just can't replicate. And it's just all that joy going back and forth between the infant and caregivers is designed to create all these good waves of hormones in a baby's system. And their brain is making all these neural connections, and the perception is that people are glad to be with me. People are available to me. I am wanted, I belong. Like it's good for me to be, and it's good for me to be here. The world is good, that's the foundation of joy that we're all intended to begin with. And sadly, we don't all begin that way, that is, that is the way that God designed the family to operate, and that mirrors God's joyful connection with us.

Geoff and I often like to point out, you know, that the blessing that God gave to Aaron to speak over the people of Israel, the early nation of Israel, after they've been freed from captivity, is, you know, the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord turns his face toward you and gives you peace. And all that talk of God's face is that joy of God's gladness to call these people his own, to receive them as his children, that joyful connection that God has with his people. And so to remind the people often that that is God's posture toward them. By commanding Aaron, this is the blessing. I want you to speak to my kids so that they constantly remember that this is my posture toward them. Glad to be with them. 

Geoff Holsclaw: I think it's Kurt Thompson who says, we're all born looking for a face that's looking for us. I think that's Kurt, and the thing that, you know, when you start hearing that and then you start reading the Bible, you're like, oh, that's what God's offering us is a face. Like we're looking for God's face. Who's looking for us? And so that's what we love talking about, that's the story of the Bible. That's the story of salvation.

Cyd Holsclaw: And we even in the garden where Adam and Eve have decided that they're going to take things into their own hands, and they're in shame, and they're hiding away. God's looking for them. Then he's pursuing them. He wants to be with them. You know that that separation becomes clear in that moment of God is glad to be with Adam and Eve this whole time, and now there's this rupture in their relationship. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: You know, you guys are making me think of something I've always said, but I'm just now connecting it with what you're saying and I always say the greatest gift my parents gave me, after knowing Jesus was, I knew they loved me and I knew they liked me. I could always see on their face that they liked being with me, and that just stuck with me, my entire life, and I'm so grateful. And like you mentioned that that joyful connection, we crave it. We want to be enjoyed by someone else. And so if joyful connection is the great desire of all of us, it sounds like, looking at these landscapes, we all pursue joyful connection in different ways. Some of us have had it, we have an experience of it, so we know how to look for it healthily. And some of us, based on the way that we were raised, maybe, don't we? We've been searching for joyful connection and haven't been able to find it. 

So what does that look like as we dig into some of these landscapes? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah, so the joyful connection is we're always pursuing connection, and if it can't be joyful, we're still gonna seek connection anyway. So Todd Hall refers to it as, I think he says something along the lines of, we will pursue connection at any cost, even if it means having to leave parts of ourselves or exclude parts of ourselves to maintain some sense of pseudo-connection. And so you see in these landscapes is, you know, the first question that we're all sort of born asking is, are there people who are available to me? If you have a secure attachment, your answer to that question is yes. Like what you were talking about, Stephanie, not only were your parents available for you, but they made it clear to you that they enjoyed you. And that kind of connection gives you a resounding yes, my family's available to me, and you go out into the world knowing that your family is always here for you, they're gonna be available to you. And we would call that living in the pasture. And we take that from Psalm 23, that the Lord is my shepherd. I lack nothing. He's with me even in the valley of the shadow of death, you know, he's with me in the presence of my enemies. All of that is exuding this sense of what it feels like to live in secure attachment. 

If the answer to that first question of, are people available to me? If your answer to that question is a maybe, because your caregivers were sometimes available to you, sometimes attuned to you, and sometimes not available or not able to help you because maybe they had stuff going on for themselves and they got into protection mode and they were just taking care of themselves, and you were more of a nuisance or a bother at that moment. That kind of inconsistency that makes you go, maybe they're available to me, causes you to live from what we would call the jungle landscape, or in attachment literature. It'd be known as preoccupied or anxious. And it's this sense of I am gonna prioritize connection. Even if that means that I have to give up my sense of being able to do things by myself or give up my preferences, give up the things that I feel like are important to me, I will give that all up just so I can stay connected with you. And so it creates this high, high skill at being able to read people well because you learn to watch your caregivers waiting for the moment when they show any sign of willingness to connect with you so that you can leap in, prioritize that moment, and connect. But that often means you're having to leave your own what's good for you, compromising what's good for you because you're just watching the world around you, which makes it feel very much like you don't have a lot of control. Agency or action in the world. 

You're just living in response to the people around you. So we can call that l hypervigilance around your relationships. You're prioritizing connection at all costs. On the other side of that, if you're asking that question, are people available to me? And you get this answer of no, not really. Either because people are present physically, but they're not attuned to you. So there's this whole, you don't feel like they get you, or you don't feel well understood. So they may be providing meals, and they might be driving you to soccer practice and doing all of the other things. They might show up at your concerts and everything, but you don't feel any sort of emotion, connection, or availability. And so if that answer, or it could just be that they're not around very much, but either way, you end up with this, no, people are not available to me. And if that's the case, then you're still gonna try to connect with people. But it's probably gonna be more through a sense of performance or achievement or doing the things that someone else will praise, because that's the only way they connect with you, is if they're praising what you do.

 And so your orientation becomes around what can I do to be recognized, so that I will receive that, and then that's like a pseudo connection, at the expense of paying attention to my emotions and how I feel. Often, not even your brain will start to say that stuff isn't important, and you begin to notice it less and less over time, because the people in your life don't seem to care about that part of you. So that leads to what we call living in the desert. This is more of the dismissive, avoidant, what we call the desert. And if you think about the contrast, even between those two landscapes, you know, a jungle is full of life and activity, and there's all kinds of stuff going on, and you have to be hypervigilant 'cause you never know what's gonna happen. But in a desert, things are pretty barren. Slow. They don't change a lot. You spend a lot of 10, a lot of energy, sort of conserving your resources. And so that sort of gives a picture of what it feels like to live in those landscapes where you're not feeling insecure. 

Geoff Holsclaw: And I just wanna jump in that these are not like conscious questions that are then right? So, as children, but even as adults like, you're just looking for someone to be available. You're looking for someone to be joyfully connected with, and then you get a regular response of like, yes, I'm here. Like, I'm ready to attune to you. You get those responses of maybe, or you get those responses that no, but they're kind of submerged. And then we start adapting. We regularly adapt to the responses we're getting from our caregivers. And that's where this kind of environment, we kind of internalize, right?

That's the technical language. We internalize what's happening to us externally in our environment, and we want to help people understand like those, and so we call them strategies. The technical literature is moving toward not talking about attachment styles because that's too much like connecting to like personalities that are just stable. Or it's just kind of genetic, or it's a temperament, but rather these things are adaptive strategies based on the environment and the time feedback we're getting from relationships and how they work. The good news is is we can have compassion for ourselves or others, and the environments and the strategies that they've developed. But then the other part of the good news is that they can be changed and that we're not stuck. We're not, this is not like our destiny. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Right. I'm glad you brought that up, Geoff, because I know back in the day, when attachment theory first came out, the thought was you were stuck. Like this is how you were born, and this is how you will always be. And it has shifted into saying that even if you were born in one of these insecure attachments, if you find someone or some people who can become that secure base, that haven for me. It doesn't mean there aren't gonna be some triggers or some automatic reactions. I mean, that hypervigilance doesn't ever fully go away. For example, if that's yours, but you can go, okay, I'm safe. Everything's okay. 

There was one more landscape to talk about. Was it a war zone? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Yes, the war zone is the result of having unpredictable caregivers, and it's often born out of more of a traumatic experience where the person that you turn to for care and getting your needs met is also hurting you in some way or another. So it could be abusive or extremely neglectful. But that creates this feeling of living in a war zone where you don't know where the landmines are.

You don't know when an explosion is going to hit. You're just sort of always kind of bracing yourself. So, spending quite a bit of time on that protection priority. That's in the literature; that's called disorganized attachment because it's hard to develop a consistent strategy in that environment. So, rather than having a consistent strategy that always works for you, you find yourself flip-flopping and sort of using any strategy you can get to, but then what worked last time doesn't always work again. And so it's a very difficult place to feel like you can find a footing. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: And as you talked about, each one of you talked about the balance of intimacy and independence, which was so good. Can you share a little bit about that? 

Cyd Holsclaw: Geoff, I feel like I'm talking a lot. So you go this time.

Geoff Holsclaw: It's all great. So this comes from the research. This isn't just unique to us, but you know, there are these two capacities that God has given us. And so when we regularly experience joyful connection. We grow in the capacity to then connect with people, with ourselves. And you know, we call that intimacy. So that's the ability to be vulnerable, to move toward others, both in a way that they amplify our joy, but also that others are helpful. In allowing us to return to joy when we're distressed or upset or just out of sorts. We have the sense that people can help us. But when we regularly experience joyful connection, which then also has the sense of they encourage us, they draw us out, they name what is true and good about our particular kind of being. You know, individual existence, right? Then that gives us confidence to go out into the world, and that would be the capacity of independence that grows.

And so like, in little children, pre-verbal children, right? They're doing the same thing because they will enter into a game. But the expectation is that there's a kind of individual modification that you're playing the game differently, that they're in, that they're trying to get your attention to play a game, but then also to get these needs met. This comes up with like little kids, you know, like they come back from church and they wanna show you their art, and you're like, great. It's another piece of art from the church. And we always throw it away, right? But what they wanna do is they wanna share with you, which is an act of intimacy, what they've done in their world of independence. This is why kids wanna show adults, the stuff that they found, the stuff that they've made, the new song that they created, right? Because that's them celebrating their independence, but they want to then also have it kind of rebound with your joyful interaction. And so the intimacy and independence are always supposed to be kind of at work there.

And when you have those two capacities working well together, that would be the secure attachment. And then just to kind of rehash what Cyd had said, like those in the jungle or the anxious attachment, they end up really prioritizing the intimacy that those skills and the benefits that come from that, they end up focusing on those. And then, like Cyd said, you kind of end up giving up yourself and your boundaries or your preferences, and so you lose that sense of independent agency. The people in the desert often go the reverse way. They are not regularly finding that joyful connection; that social emotional energy is just absent from their experience. So why pursue that? Because it just leads to disappointment. So I just turn that part of myself off. I pursue independence. I'm good at getting things done on my own. I'm a really good problem solver. I love problem-solving my problems, because then I don't have to admit that I have a weakness or a vulnerability, and then have to ask for someone else's help. I'll just do it on my own. Right? So then they accentuate the independence, and then the war zone just has kind of deficits in both the intimacy. Independence, they're kind of in conflict at war with each other. 

Cyd Holsclaw: A secure attachment. You're integrating intimacy and independence. So they are both strong.

Stephanie Gutierrez: And so it sounds like in the jungle, the priority is kind of intimacy. How can I be close? How can I get more connections? How can I be with people? And in that desert, the priority is protection and independence, and I need to be able to do that myself. And in a war zone, it's just a hot mess combination of the two. 

So, as we kind of pull this into our relationship with the Lord, what might that look like? What might be some challenges that people might have based on those landscapes in their relationship with the Lord as they desire both independence and intimacy? 

Cyd Holsclaw: That is the million-dollar question, and why we do the work we do. So people who find themselves in the jungle will probably have sort of a hypervigilance about their relationship with God, and it might be centered more on that feeling God's presence, or feeling like God is listening to me, or feeling a sense of connection, or feeling like God is there. So that's feeling territory. It could also be a lot more emotional focus, like I experience God caring for me in my sadness, but maybe God doesn't like my anger, or maybe anger feels like a disconnection, or I can bring these emotions to God, but these feel like they might separate me from God. And so there's, there might be some filtering around which emotions I can bring to God based on the experiences I've had, with which emotions I can bring to caregivers. There might also be seasons where you feel so close and connected with God, and everything is going so well, but then something starts to feel like it dries up, and all of a sudden, it's like God has left me, God has abandoned me.

I don't feel like God is there for me anymore because of that lack of intimacy. And so all of the relationship is gonna be more focused on how I can feel close and connected with God. 

Whereas from the desert landscape, it's gonna be probably much more theological, logical, linear tools like scripture study, you know, looking at. What the words say, you might be, you know, looking through, they might appreciate more of a liturgical environment, might appreciate more like creeds and you know, doctrine types of things. It's gonna be more of a sense of God is God. God is God all the time. God doesn't change regardless of what's going on in my life. It's more of that level consistent, but there might not be much of a sense of God cares about me as a person, or God cares about what's going on in my heart, mind, and soul. And so those are just some things that come to my mind right away. Geoff, what about you? 

Geoff Holsclaw: I think like the deep kind of good news is that God always meets us amid whatever landscape we're in, and so for those who are in the jungle, God will show up now, and embrace and love and touch them in their feelings or experience like a closeness. But then, long term, the discipleship journey isn't just to stay there. And I think that's sometimes what happens in our spiritual journeys, when God meets us where we are, and we kind of keep expecting that. And that might happen because of God's goodness, you know, he keeps meeting us in that place, but he is long-term.

He wants to draw us into the pasture. And that is kind of a transformation, then of how God will interact with us. And sometimes that's called the wall, or, you know, a night, depending on all these things. Or a second blessing, like traditions have different words for it, but it's where God is kind of moving us out of that landscape by kind of doing things we don't want. And so if we're in the jungle, we're always like asking, you know, where is God? Where is God? God might be a little more absent, or idled is probably the better word, because there's that growth to be able to like trust God's word rather than our experience or our feelings. That trusting that God is available even when we don't sense it, trusting God's promises long term, even if we're not seeing exactly what's happening, but someone in the desert, it might be the opposite. This is why we're very passionate about. Understanding these attachment strategies because the discipleship journey could be opposite for someone in the jungle moving toward the pasture and someone who's in the desert moving toward the pasture.

So, someone like me in the desert, I'm really strong in Bible study. I'm really strong on doctrine. I love that stuff. Very heady. And for a little while, God will meet me there and still does. Right? And so I still have to have compassion for myself to not feel bad. Like, oh, I'm not weeping and crying all the time when I pray, like, that's okay. Like God meeting me in my head, and that's good. But the growth is a little bit to move out of just that head and try to move toward the integration of the heart, whether that's through expression and worship music, whether that's not just reading Romans again and trying to read the Psalms, right? Just like getting into the poetry of scripture. Like a different kind of framework that expresses more emotion kind of in your relationship with God. And so, how can we allow God to meet us where we are? But then, also strategically, he's moving us into that pasture, and it can feel bad for us sometimes.

And I think, the last thing here is I think sometimes, and we won't get into a big conversation about like or all these things, which I think sometimes what we do is we drag God into our landscape, our insecure attachment style, and then it works. So God really just is a distant rulemaking Go,d and I've given up on that kind of deep, passionate relationship.

Cyd Holsclaw: Because God isn't that way anyway.

Geoff Holsclaw: And you kind of rewrite God to fit your attachment style long term. And it could also be the reverse. So sometimes, in the jungle, someone will just be like, well, God has no rules. God just loves everybody. And God's just a big, you know, feeler who just loves us all. 

Cyd Holsclaw: And he doesn't care if I never read the Old Testament because he just loves me. 

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. And my spiritual life can be all over the place because he just accepts me the way I am. And like short-term term God does kind of maybe meet you that way. But long term, like, well, there are kinds of well-understood spiritual pathways and growth and doctrine does kind of matter, and you know, there are consequences for our actions and sin is a real thing. Right? And so we don't wanna, we want God to draw us into the pasture, but we talk about in the book about how the temptation is to drag God into our attachment. And so that's kind of the complex layer.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. Oh, that's so good. So finding kind of coming to the end of ourselves is an opportunity for us to make a transition into that pasture, whether it's, like you guys said, if I'm a feeler and I'm prioritizing intimacy with God and experiencing him, he might pull some of my scripture and I can memorize it. He might let me come to the end of myself and hit that wall. Like, there's gotta be more to it than this. And maybe he's calling us into an experience that's totally out of our comfort zone, but that will help heal some things inside of us, and both of those things, bringing us into a place where we can be in the pastor, where we've got intimacy. With God and we've got independence, recognizing he made us so that we could go out and return to him, back and forth, that safe base.

Oh, you guys, this is so good. 

Cyd Holsclaw: Asking about the intimacy and independence that, you know, the first book that we wrote, does God Really Like Me, really unpacks those two themes and how they are all over scripture. So if that's something that your listeners are saying, oh, that resonates with me, that would be another place to explore that. God's intimacy from the beginning of Genesis to the vision of the new Jerusalem in Revelation, and his giving us independence, empowering and equipping us, and sending us out in his name. 

Geoff Holsclaw: It's like a sneaky biblical theology of living as the image of God. But you wouldn't get that just from reading the table of contents, but that's really what that is. Does God like me? 

Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Okay. And I do wanna make sure to ask for people who are listening who might be a little stirred up right now, maybe they heard some of those insecure attachments or those different landscapes, and they're thinking, shoot, that might be me. What could be a step they could take toward healing? Just one step. 

Cyd Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, no, you are not alone. You're not bad, you're not broken, you're not beyond hope, because you find yourself in one of these landscapes. I have written about these landscapes because of the way that Jesus is drawing us both into the pasture. So first and foremost, I would wanna say, please don't let it be a discouragement that, like, oh no, now what? But rather, oh, God is in the habit of revealing what he wants to heal. 

If you're now seeing that there might be a little bit of a deficiency or a deficit in your capacity for intimacy or independence, or if you're recognizing that maybe your answer to that availability question is a maybe or a no, finding yourself in one of those landscapes, I think the first thing I would wanna say is, Jesus knows that better than you do. And he's in the habit of coming to people right where they are in their own. He eats with tax collectors and sinners. He goes to the Samaritan woman at the well. He meets people right where they are without demand or expectation. And he invites and he draws you into life, and he has everything you need. And we could talk more specifically about how to make those connections, but I guess I want that first thing to be, you have these survival strategies because you needed them, you might not be where you are today. And so to have a sense of gratitude at the wisdom of God, that even though you didn't get everything he might have designed the world to provide for you, he's also designed you to be able to adapt and survive.

And so there's goodness in that as well. So, even being able to wow, God, thank you that you gave me the wisdom to use these strategies so that I could navigate life to where I am. And now I wanna turn to you for the wisdom to create some new strategies that fit better for where I am now. But I always want people to hear that first talk about anything else.

Stephanie Gutierrez: Absolutely. And the idea is not to point out how broken everybody is. We all come from different places. And you guys pointed out in the book, and I wanna make sure, to add this in too, having an insecure attachment does not disqualify you from service or from connection with God. I mean, you guys pointed out that there are things that develop in you that make you incredible. Some of the most phenomenal people in the world grew up with the craziest background stories, and if you grew up with an anxious attachment, you're probably really perceptive and aware of people and able to meet their needs phenomenally. Or if you grew up with an avoidant in the desert, you probably have this huge capacity for independence to do hard things, and to research and to find solutions. And so every part of our stories, and that's what's so beautiful, and you guys do talk about that as well.

 So there is so much hope and joy ahead, and just even going back to where we talked about in the beginning, that joyful connection, I just feel excited for everybody because God is calling all of us into joyful connection, first and foremost with him. He's gonna do that through other people, too. But he is our true source of joyful connection. And he is the face that, when we look at him, he is always smiles down on us. 

So thank you both so much for coming on today. I wanna mention that your book is coming out, Landscapes of the Soul. We'll be releasing this episode right around that time. 

And then, do you guys wanna mention your cohort as well? 

Geoff Holsclaw: Yeah. Well, I'll jump in if, for all the things we do, we have a podcast called Attaching to God. We run cohorts every couple of times, about four times a year that go, that teach through this stuff. And then we also host an annual Attaching to God's Summit, where this year we're bringing in 15 speakers from the spiritual formation tradition therapists, as well as biblical scholars and theologians. But you can find all of that on our website, which is Embodied Faith, Do Life. You can find the cohorts as well as my substack and writing, and all that stuff. 

Stephanie Gutierrez: And check it out, especially if this piques your interest today. I was telling Cyd and Geoff beforehand that, I would say of all the books that I've read, theirs is one of my absolute top favorites. I guess that's kinda repetitive to say top favorite. It's one of my tops, it's one of my favorites. That's just how much I liked it, and I'm very serious about that.

 So if you're looking for a way to attach to the Lord and rediscover a fresh, new way of relating to him, pick it up. It is not dry reading. It's fun because I love it. I was saying to you guys, too, you have great things to say, but you say it beautifully as well. So it was just an enjoyable book to read. 

So thank you guys, not only for being here today and speaking to our missionary listeners, but for putting all this stuff that God's put on the inside of you into courses and book form and in such a way that people can learn more. We just. Your gift to the body of Christ. Thank you both. 

Cyd Holsclaw: Thank you, Stephanie.

Geoff Holsclaw: Thanks for having us on. And our heart has always been just to like, serve the church. That's why we wrote this book and do all the things we're doing. So, thank you for doing and equipping all the people out there.

Stephanie Gutierrez: I appreciate it.