Modern Day Missionaries

S07E15 Help With Culture Clashes and Crashes with Dr. Linda Saunders

• Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez | Modern Day Missions • Season 7 • Episode 15

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Ever found yourself confused by cultural “rules” you didn’t even know you were breaking? Wondering why some of your most sincere efforts aren’t landing the way you hoped? And how do you build real connection when it feels like you're speaking a different language—even when you're technically not?

In this perspective-shifting episode, we talk with Dr. Linda Saunders—a former missionary, scholar, and cross-cultural mentor. Together, we explore how cultural dynamics affect everything—from your relationships to your gospel witness—and why many of us need a refresher once we’re actually on the field. (Spoiler: It’s like reading a parenting book after having kids—it just hits different.)

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

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[00:01:02] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to this episode of the Modern Day Missionaries podcast.

I just wrapped up a fantastic conversation with Dr. Linda Saunders. She's a scholar and author, a former missionary and a professor specializing in intercultural communication and missiology, and she's the kind of person who lives what she teaches.

I love it because she brings experience. She brings a lot of knowledge and study, and then this is something she works in and she's dedicated her life to. I was talking to her at the end, and a lot of us missionaries, perhaps studied cross-cultural type things before we went on the field, but once you get on the field, you just get so busy with the everyday life of all the things that you need to do and you wanna do while you're there. And I love what Dr. Saunders does today because she takes us through almost like a crash course in some of these cross-cultural things that maybe we learned at one point, maybe we never learned and we could use a refresher on, but she ties it to our everyday life.

It reminds me of what it's like, when you're a parent. If you read a parenting book before you had kids and then you picked one up after you had kids, and you're like, okay, that makes so much more sense now. So I love today's conversation. She is a leader in her field. She's a leader in the Evangelical Mythological Society and serves on the Advisory Council for the National African American Mission Council as well, and is just passionate about bringing more diversity and understanding and cross-cultural communication wherever she goes. So get ready for this very rich and wonderful conversation with Dr. Linda Saunders.

[00:02:38] Stephanie Gutierrez: Linda, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

[00:02:42] Linda P Saunders: Thank you for having me, Stephanie. This is wonderful.

[00:02:45] Stephanie Gutierrez: It is, and you and I have had a fun time getting to know each other, even in conversations before this; just laughing so hard. We could barely stop ourselves before we got going. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:03:03] Linda P Saunders: I am too.

[00:03:04] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Okay. So Linda, I love that we're talking to you in particular about cross-cultural things today, because you're unique in that you have experienced this and walked this out as a missionary in Venezuela for 15 years. So you've got the experience, you've also got the education.

You've got a PhD in intercultural and multicultural studies, and then you've got an occupation. You've directed cross-cultural training programs. You're now a professor at Liberty University. So this is all around you; it's in you and it's what you've devoted your life to. You know, when you think about cross-cultural things, I think that many missionaries assume that a love for Jesus is enough to overcome cultural barriers. They think, I'm just gonna go to the field and I love people and that is all I need. But I mean, you know, you're listening to that going, no, it's not all you need.

It's true. We're gonna, we're gonna talk more about that, and I'd love for you to start talking about it by tapping into some of your personal experience. So I would say during your time in Venezuela, what was one of the most challenging cultural clashes that you and your family had to navigate?

[00:04:13] Linda P Saunders: Probably the most challenging would be that at that time when we first moved to Venezuela, I wasn't aware of what David Livermore calls the cultural intelligence or “"CQ"”. So the cultural systems, cultural values, and "CQ" knowledge, and one of our biggest hurdles was recognizing that Venezuela is a polychronic cultural value, whereas in the United States, we're considered monoclonic.

Polychronic just means that time is on a continuum as fluidly monoclonic as time is distinct segments. One example is if your job begins at eight o'clock in the morning in the United States, you're expected to be there probably at a quarter till eight. In Venezuela, though poly chronic you just finished the next event. So if a party begins at seven PM, if you show up at seven PM you're expected to help get the party started or get prepared for it. We won't start until around ten or so, and the same was for church. We had to make those adjustments. And the first couple of years we really did not make that adjustment well.

In the United States, we tend to be more, we are more individualistic and Venezuelans are collectivistic. Individualism means it is about I and me and collectivism is we, and as simple as it sounds, those kinds of cultural values or worldviews take time to sort of become a part of it.

And so it's one specific incident though. As far as collectivism, they share more shared things. Everything is viewed as, as ours and not mine. To the point where if you went to the store, especially pre-covid, when we first arrived, there would be a water pot or water, some receptacle for water, but there was only one cup. So at church there's a little place where you can get the water, but just one little paper cup. So we never got water because I wasn't gonna drink behind, you know, the masses. But we had to learn that that was their collectivism showing and really coming through.

So we allowed one of the pastor's nephews to stay in our home during one of our first furloughs. And when we came back we noticed items were missing, like our fans. He had driven our vehicle. And so we had a meeting with his mother and his aunt who were the pastor's sisters, and this is what we learned, that collectivism means shared. Everything is shared. So in their mind, they couldn't understand why we were accusing him of theft because it was truly, if you're in there, it is. It is, “Mi casa es su casa” is a real cultural value.

[00:07:42] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes, it is.

[00:07:43] Linda P Saunders: He didn't steal our fan. I mean, it was everyone's fan.

[00:07:48] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Okay. I love that, the specifics of that example and how it affected you. Okay, so it's making me think of two examples. First of all, I'm thinking of all of my Argentinian and Uruguayan friends and how they drink, mate, you know, and for people who don't know what mate is, it's this type of, like a green tea, that has a similar flavor. And, you drink it out of your cup and you pour hot water in it and you have a straw and you pass it around the circle and everybody drinks the matte. So you drink it and then you pass it and they fill it up with hot water and you pass it to somebody else.

And I remember when I first saw that, because we had people coming to stay with us from Argentina and Uruguay when we were in Peru for different church conferences. And I was like, that feels kind of unsanitary.

Like, I don't know that I wanna drink out of that, but you're trying to be a good missionary and a good person but it's a different way of thinking.

On another note, I remember when I was seventeen and I was dating my husband whose parents are Peruvian. He is American and was born here, but he had lived there for middle school and high school in Peru. And so he's bringing me to meet his family and I go and I am hungry. I was an athlete in high school, and so my metabolism was through the roof and I had to eat all the time. And the meals were just at different times. I mean, we're eating breakfast at like eleven AM and lunch at like four PM and dinner at like ten PM. I mean, it was just a crazy town.

Thankfully I had packed some snacks and so I remember pulling out a packet of my fruit snacks because I was just shaking like my blood, blood sugar was in the ground, whatever. I'm shaking and I pull out my fruit stacks. Clearly nobody else is hungry because they're used to this and nobody's talking about food. So I open them to eat them and I'm thinking like an American, everybody puts out their hand and says to me, oh, gimme one. And I'm like, but you're not hungry. I'm hungry. Like, and there's like a whole whopping 10 fruit snacks in there. And by the time I have shared the fruit snacks, I think I have three left. And I'm just like, I mean, just shaking and every time I pulled something out, if it was a granola bar, you had to break into little pieces for everybody else. I was so frustrated and upset because my little American mindset is like, we all bring our own snacks. I was prepared. You weren't.

And I mean, you realize now I think back to that and I'm horrified. I'm like, how rude. Even now, as you know, living back in the States, I can't eat in front of people. That would be the rudest thing ever. That's jarring. Those little tiny things are jarring, and that's what I mean. I'd love to even hear some more from you about it. These are little tiny things that become huge, giant things that can create things like you said, like you are a thief, you are a liar, and can really impact the way that we feel on the field. I'd love for you to say a little bit more about that, maybe some of your experience and what you've seen. What can missionaries do when they're feeling those kinds of things?

[00:11:07] Linda P Saunders: Wow. Yeah, I don't wanna jump ahead, but there's a lot of things and we first start with what David Livermore called “CQ”. So we all usually know “IQ” intelligence quotient and “EQ”, emotional intelligence. But many times, even as missionaries, we're not aware of “"CQ"” cultural intelligence and the four capabilities of cultural intelligence are. "CQ" Drive, "CQ" knowledge, "CQ" Strategy, and "CQ" Action. "CQ" drive is just the measurement of how motivated we are to learn about a new culture or interact with those who are different from our own. "CQ" knowledge is just studying the differences and similarities of different cultures. "CQ" strategy is putting that strategy together. We synthesize the drive in knowledge and put that strategy together to come up with a competent or effective "CQ" action. So in this cultural intelligence, it's a continuing circular. We are always growing, moving in and out of each of these, but it also gives us a sense of different cultures.

I tell my students all the time, culture is different. It's not right, it's not wrong, it's different. And the best we can do, especially in the context of sharing the gospel, is to recognize different cultures or cultural values. Or just that we can learn that culture is a set of learned behaviors. So we can learn about cultures, we can learn and we can really adapt if we're willing to the intentionality and when we've shared the funny stories about cultural differences, but when you're talking about making that kind of error and sharing the gospel, then we're talking about an eternal weight that it carries. So understanding somebody's worldview or somebody's cultural

value and not making that the centerpiece but finding common ground, finding the bridge to those differences. Or sometimes what feels like a chasm is what I recommend.

[00:13:25] Stephanie Gutierrez: That's so good. Just that seeking to understand and I like what you're saying there instead of quickly assuming something's wrong or you're doing something that's driving me crazy or your way is not the right way. It's digging in and asking like, so I've noticed when I put down that a party begins at seven you come at eight or nine, tell me more about that. You know, but not in a passive aggressive way. S

[00:13:57] Linda P Saunders: Or like when you know the pastor. Another thing about cooperative or polychronic cultural values is the pastor and his family would just come unannounced and I actually, I grew up in a house like that and my mother loved just company just whenever, but I wasn't so much like that.

So I want, you know, previous notice. Let me know if you want to visit, I love visitors, but let me know you're coming. Well, the pastor and his family would just show up and so in our American mindset, we were like, that's so rude. And it wasn't, it was just their cultural values. Show up and have a visit. So, they're more being than doing and in the US we're more doing, transaction time is money, all that. And they are definitely being in the moment relationship values over transactional values.

[00:15:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: Hmm. When you grew up in the African American community here, Linda, with your family, and I'm curious if you had cross-cultural experiences here in the US that even prepared you to move abroad?

[00:15:14] Linda P Saunders: Actually I did. Now, at the time, I had no idea that God was really preparing me, but my mother and father who I always like to give a shout out to, they did an excellent job. There's six of us and what they did, one of the things we always had internationals in our home, missionaries and pastors, so we grew up with it.

I don't think we had a time when, at Thanksgiving, when there wasn't an international at our table. So we grew up and that just really sparked that drive, that motivation to learn more about cultures. So from a young age, I was used to meeting people from different countries with different accents or different languages. So it was not anything different or new to me.

A funny story is when my twin sister and I think we were maybe eight, and we had taken a trip to Florida and we were on the glass bottom boat tour or something, and he said that the tour guide asked how many world travelers were in the group. And at that time we had only been, I think, to Mexico or Canada. I mean, we hadn't gone off of the North American continent at that point in our lives. But my father says, my sister and I stood up and he says he, to this day, that was prophetic. And it was because now I, of course, am a world traveler. But it was just them giving us that desire, putting that spark in us to just learn about different cultures. My father would tell us about his time in Germany when he was in the Army. So from, I mean, we were sitting on his lap, so that's how little we were. And I remember him talking about Germany and the few languages, the few words that he could remember. And so that sparked my interest and that's the language that I studied in high school and college.

[00:17:31] Stephanie Gutierrez: So your dad brought the world to you guys?

[00:17:34] Linda P Saunders: Yeah.

[00:17:36] Stephanie Gutierrez: What a gift. I wanna go back for a second to the four tenets of cultural intelligence that you brought up and dig a little bit more into those so that a missionary listening can identify with those and think, okay, what is an area in which I could grow? I think Drive was the first one. Talk a little bit about what that looks like and how somebody might cultivate that. And we're talking to missionaries who are pre-field, who might be getting ready to go. But I think the majority of our listeners are missionaries already on the field especially, how can they cultivate that desire?

[00:18:17] Linda P Saunders: Okay. That drive. Well, the "CQ" drive, there's three sub dimensions: extrinsic, intrinsic, and self-efficacy. So extrinsic motivation is simply the motivation that's outside. So my favorite example is usually because I'm talking with students getting a good grade, getting your degree for a missionary, actually being able to and on the mission field in, in your host country or culture. So that's an extrinsic motivation for learning about culture. Intrinsic motivation is that inward drive. So whether that's, I want to learn because this is what I'm drawn to or I want to learn because it's just been instilled in me from a young age, but whatever inwardly is driving you and then self-efficacy is the confidence that I have to learn, the more we interact, the higher our efficacy or competence improves. So as far as learning or improving our drive and getting yourself involved in different cultures, different cultural activities, whether you're in the field now or whether you're still in the United States.

The one thing about the United States is that we don't have to leave the United States to interact with almost every nation on the earth. They're right here on our doorstep, and we see that really at the university level the international students. That's a prime opportunity for missions that we many times miss but if we interact with internationals right here, we can then begin to cultivate more of our drive to learn more about different cultures.

Just one point, Stephanie, that I like making is that we barely engage with the international students at the university level. And according to Joshuaproject.net or travelingteam.org according to their stats eighty percent of mission international students go back home to their home countries without ever having been invited into a US home. So it's a missed opportunity for evangelism, for missions. Another point for that, I think it's like fifty percent of those that go back to their host country become some kind of leader or head of state. So we're missing a huge opportunity right there to interact and to sharpen our "CQ" with people right here on our doorsteps.

[00:21:04] Stephanie Gutierrez: Thank you for bringing that up because a lot of our listeners are missionaries serving here in the United States, and so what a great reminder that in all of our colleges and universities, there is this incredible evangelism opportunity and so it's, it's a win-win because it's phenomenal for them. We get to share the gospel with them, and they get to eat with a family, get to learn from them about culture. That's beautiful.

[00:21:29] Linda P Saunders: And that's another way that we can also gauge our culture or our motivation. So when we interact with internationals or those from different cultures, what I, a lot of times I'll ask people who are sitting invited guests, not your family members, but who sits at your table? Who sleeps in your bed? If they look like you, think, like you act like you have the same views, then you're not really close to different cultures.

Start cultivating that. Invite people that don't have your same views, your worldviews, your cultural values to sit with you and eat to stay in your home. And this is how we are, this is another way to actually increase our "CQ" drive.

[00:22:20] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. And it's so fun too. I mean, for people listening, if they've never had that experience, it is one of the funnest things to have people from different countries come and sit at your dinner table. I mean, the stories you get to hear and the and it is fascinating.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay, so those are some great ways to increase drive. And that makes me think of how we can also do that out of country. Because I think sometimes missionaries have a tendency, to kind of congregate in their bubble they'll invite other missionaries over, but let's be friends with the people in that culture and not be scared of that. I mean, that was a part of my drive when we wanted friends. I was lonely and yes, I wanted other missionary friends and English speaking friends, but I just wanted any friends. And I could tell there were people that I was meeting and seeing at church and I liked. I can't speak with them very well, but I can tell I would like them. That was a major driver for me, beyond just even wanting to be like a minister to them. And mean also when people would come up for, you know, counseling questions or for help and not having the words to be able to or the capacity to understand, that's enough to drive you. I feel like there's just motivation left and right everywhere. And we'll tap into it. So those are, those are great.

Okay. What was the second one of cultural intelligence?

[00:23:49] Linda P Saunders: Knowledge. So "CQ" knowledge is a bit more extensive. The sub dimensions of "CQ" knowledge are what we call cultural systems or business systems, and then there's cultural values and sociolinguistics. But anyway, the "CQ" six major systems that David Livermore focuses on. So education, for example, the education system. Is it a formal or informal legal system? Is it a formal or informal economic system, which has nothing to do with politics, but is it? Capitalistic or socialistic? Capitalistic meaning the economy is in simple terms, how we exchange goods. So capitalistic society focuses on supply and demand in the marketplace, whereas socialistic societies focus more on shared resources and, and accessibility to all.

So for example, in the United States, overarching, we're a capitalistic society, but socialistic aspects of the US are public roads, public schools, public libraries. Everyone has access to those resources. So that's simply socialistic and capitalistic and economics, then the religious system.

So is it rational or mystic? And so for example, usually we put Christianity in the rational. Rational is simply, can this be explained logically? However, Christianity is really both because mystic we talk about the blood of Jesus Christ saving us that's more mystical, the sacrifice of Jesus as the supreme Lamb that's mystical. Is Islam rational or mystical? Religiously, it tends to be rational, whereas mysticism comes in Eastern religions when they are more heavily on the mystic side. Then there's artistic, is it fluid or clear? Fluid is, there's really no rhyme or reason. When you look at the Barrios in Raku there, you can't really see clear lines of streets. Whereas here we have addresses, we have streets. We can tell you to go down to Main Street, take a left, go over to Broadway, take a right, and you'll arrive at your destination. In Venezuela I still can't figure out how they know how to get back home in the body.

[00:26:39] Stephanie Gutierrez: So you're gonna, you're gonna see a bodega a green sign and kind of turn by there…

[00:26:42] Linda P Saunders: It all runs together. We can think of Van Gogh's starry night that would be considered fluid, whereas the painting of the farmer, I forget the name, but the farmer, his wife with the pitchfork, that's more the clear lines; so that's artistic.

So formal is written law, like our constitution. Informal is more like Sharia law and the Muslim culture. So these are the six systems in the "CQ" knowledge, and then you have 10 cultural values, poly, chronic monoclonic, as I spoke of indirect deals with how we communicate in the United States in general. We fall under direct, so I say what I mean. I mean, what I say indirectly is more what we call beating around the bush and it takes time to really.

And also there's global clusters where this cluster tends to be polychronic or this cluster tends to be monoclonic. So when you start breaking it down into the 10 cultural clusters, like the Anglo cultural clusters tend to be monoclonic where the Sub-Saharan cultural cluster tends to be polychronic. You can break it down like that, but you know, I have a lot of funny stories on dealing with these cultural values and the poly chronic or the indirect direct.

We were in Uganda and I probably just growing up in the United States, I'm very direct and we went down to ask for a taxi to take us to the muse and I thought that was just a simple request and that turned into probably a fifteen minute in essence situation because we first asked the concierge if we wanted a taxi. And he said, you want a taxi? So in my mind, it's just verifying what I said. I'm used to that from my husband being in the counseling world, but that went on for like, I kid you not, probably at least 10 minutes, if not longer. And all he kept verifying. So you want a taxi? Yes. You want a taxi to take you to the museum? Yes. I wasn't sure. In my mind I'm like, this is indirect, but what am I doing wrong? What, what is going on here? And it got to the point where, you know, I didn't want to just start laughing, but I was like, am I in some kind of movie? Am I in the Twilight Zone or, or ground work today? What is going on here?

And when he picked up the phone, he put his hand on the phone and I thought, great, we're getting somewhere. But he asked again, so you want a taxi? And I was like, wow. So after about ten to fifteen minutes or so, I mean it went on for a while. He finally picked up the phone to call the taxi. And to this day, I think back, because I told my husband, we got in the car, he said, they're so, they're indirect at being indirect. So I was like, okay.

[00:30:06] Stephanie Gutierrez: Whoa.

[00:30:07] Linda P Saunders: You would wanna have that kind of clash in sharing the gospel. So these are the things that we, you know, we look at when we're talking about effective communication of the gospel. Because if we had that kind of chasm, then sometimes they could miss the point forever. And now you're talking about a soul versus a taxi to the museum. So that's in the cultural value.

[00:30:33] Stephanie Gutierrez: If I can add to that, it's exactly what you're saying in the presentation of the gospel. We are presenting the gospel even through the way we're living their life. So let's say that you had blown up at that taxi driver 'cause he was driving you bananas because you're like I said it already five hundred times. Yes, I want a taxi. What do I need to do to tell you I want a taxi? If we do those kinds of things as missionaries in our everyday life, we'll close people off to ever receiving the gospel. We won't ever get to the point we're able to talk about Jesus, because they're gonna be like, you're rude. So this is big steak stuff.

[00:31:11] Linda P Saunders: Yeah, so we don't wanna offend even in the little things, and I'm not saying little, like belittling, but just the small things that we need to really pay attention to. It is extremely important because when we talk about bridging that gap between the gospel and having the opportunity to witness many times on the mission field it is not that we are not being a witness for Christ in that sense. But many times we don't reach people because we really have misunderstood their cultural value, their cultural systems or their worldview. Worldview is another huge piece to this. We come from a guilt innocent worldview in the United States, but much of the world, much of the world comes from shame/honor. Some are fear/ power. We see all those aspects within the United States in different subcultures or organizations, but by and large, we share the gospel from guilt/innocence. So we've emphasized things like we want them to make a decision and then we want them to just accept Christ as their personal savior, but we also so that they can be free from any guilt or go to hell. We forget to focus on the shame/innocent part where Jesus has taken our shame on the cross to give us honor. And if someone's worldview is honor, shame, they're really not gonna pick up on that guilt/innocence presentation, it will be more of a hard sell.

So things like this, the sociolinguistics and cultural knowledge deals with how we say thank you. How do I say I forgive you, or, I'm sorry. These are important. In Venezuela, we learned that they don't just say, I'm sorry, they give gifts or small tokens or some kind of gesture that can be unnoticed because we had an incident where we thought they were being very well, we thought disrespectful, rude to us when in essence we didn't understand their culture. And how they express sorrow or forgiveness or, and this goes no matter, you're talking about forgiveness. I love you, how things are different. When we say love you in a context where they don't know who Jesus is, or love means something completely different, it falls flat. So saying Jesus loves you, what does that mean if I don't know who Jesus is? But we take that as if it's the, it's gospel truth, but we have to share it in a way that resonates with their deeply held beliefs,

[00:34:15] Stephanie Gutierrez: Wow. It's not true to them if they can't understand what it is. So. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Okay. And I wanna get to three and four, but I wanna ask kind of a pause question because I know we've talked about a lot already. I mean, this is, this is rich stuff. What would you say to somebody who is feeling a sense of overwhelm right now? Maybe they've been trying to learn all these things and it just feels like so much and they've got like culture exhaustion. They just wanna tune out and think, I can't do this anymore. Have you ever experienced that?

[00:34:46] Linda P Saunders: Yeah.

[00:34:46] Stephanie Gutierrez: What would you say to somebody who is currently experiencing it?

[00:34:49] Linda P Saunders: You know that, that's a great question. There are actually five stages of culture shock. The second stage is what we call, the frustration stage or the distress stage, but this is the stage when you're not really excited anymore. The first part of culture shock is the honeymoon phase. Everything is great. And actually the host culture when you say is better than home culture, blah, blah, blah. But then when you get to that distress stage, everything becomes a treasure, a drudgery and everything. Now you find the complaints and you're now finding your biases and prejudices against your host co-culture. So whether you're talking about traffic, food, whatever you're talking about, now you're irritated. About these things that you were excited about before about the newness, but now you're irritated.

And one of the best ways to deal with this, again, is going back to David Livermore's "CQ" intelligence and getting rid of ethnocentrism. Ethnocentrism is the belief that my culture is superior to all other cultures. And

this is a lesson that actually I did not realize until we got to the Venezuela lesson. One of the lessons that I learned, I wish I had learned ahead of time, but what can result in major culture crashes or clashes is that ethnocentric attitude. So I walk into a culture and I believe that the United States culture is superior to any other culture on earth. That attitude will kill any kind of evangelism or any kind of relationship. So no culture is superior to another. A culture isn't superior or inferior. Cultures are just different.

So we look at, that's why we study the similarities and differences and to focus on that. Cultures might be similar, they might be different, but they're not inferior or superior. So recognizing that can help us with that cultural exhaustion phase.

[00:37:13] Stephanie Gutierrez: And we gotta get to some hope, what's stage three and four and five? Because it must get better. We don't just stay in that place of frustration. Right?

[00:37:21] Linda P Saunders: No, no. That's actually to see the delivery more in the strategy stage, how you look for ways to bridge these gaps, and then you move into that adjustment stage in the culture.

So once I get to the fourth capability of "CQ" action, now I'm ready to compare what I know: what I know about my culture, what I know about the host culture, and create ways to actually check. So I'm checking, and I'm adapting. If I see that I'm in a—if I'm monochronic, but I'm living in a polychronic society, what do I need to do?

What alerts me to that? Am I in that society differently? Cultural value, and what do I need to do to adapt?

So one of the things that alerts me is that if I'm invited to a party and they say it starts at seven, when I arrive at seven, they're not ready. But then the party actually starts at ten. That's one alert. Another alert is that they focus heavily on relationships. So even when we, if I'm going to a meeting, I remember my husband and I, we would be ashamed, we would get very frustrated. We would meet with the pastor or meet with anyone. When we first formed the foundation, with the attorney, the first thing that they wanted to do—it wasn't just sit down to business, it was: How’s your family? How’s this?

It’s fifteen, twenty minutes of relationship, relational. Have a cup of coffee or have a cup of tea, depending on where we are in the day. And we were like, you know, we're like, We don't have time for this!

[00:39:25] Stephanie Gutierrez: I feel like most cultures are that way. I feel like The United States is very unique in that we just drive down to business.

[00:39:32] Linda P Saunders: The United States is an anomaly.

[00:39:38] Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh, yes. I love a lot of things about it here, but that's one that I'm not a huge fan of, even though I live within it. Okay, so you're in that fourth stage now adaptation, and then you just brought in another one of those cultural intelligence and that was the one of action.

[00:39:56] Linda P Saunders: Yes. The acceptance stage. So once you accept that you are here for a purpose. And for the missionaries, of course, the purpose is to share Christ and to effectively share the good news. US citizens or Americanized Christians must recognize that the Bible wasn't written to us Americans, and it wasn't written in English. Many times we say we are gonna contextualize or put it in the context of this host culture as if it was written in our context.

[00:40:39] Stephanie Gutierrez: Right. It's so true.

[00:40:40] Linda P Saunders: Yeah. When we recognize that we're contextualizing from a culture that no one here on earth ever lived in, the time is ancient.

[00:40:51] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah.

[00:40:51] Linda P Saunders: So we're bridging that and then we're bridging it again. We understand it from our cultural perspective but bridge that gap from the biblical time and language to the host culture's culture and language. Not that you have to stop in the United States for our culture. This isn't an Americanized gospel. It is kingdom focused.

So here is where I say once we get to this acceptance stage and the "CQ" action. When we're sharing the gospel, remember that we're talking about the Kingdom. It's not Linda's, it's not Stephanie's. This is God's Kingdom.

And so as missionaries, when we learn that we're sharing God's Kingdom, it is not an Americanized culture or gospel. We can then move better into that acceptance stage and that action stage. Because now we're checking not just against our culture but against what are the biblical values here. What is important?

The most important thing when we look at the grand narrative is the theme that runs through the biblical grand narrative from Genesis to Revelation: relationship, reconciliation, redemption, and restoration. That is the thread. And Jesus, God's love, is what ties it all together. Those are some of the major threads or themes that run through the Bible and are focused on the Kingdom.

So we know that when we go back to check, is this correct, we check it against that Kingdom focus, against the biblical grand narrative. Then we can know that culture becomes a secondary piece. This is important, yes, we have to understand it, but it is a secondary piece to understanding Kingdom culture. Because that is ultimately what we want people to accept.

They do not ever have to agree with, believe in, or want to accept American culture as American missionaries, but they do have to accept Kingdom culture and what God has planned as far as salvation, for our salvation.

[00:43:03] Stephanie Gutierrez: Thank you for those great reminders. You know, there's a book I read called Jesus Through Middle Eastern Eyes. I think that's the name of the book. I'll double-check and put it in the show notes, but it's an excellent look at just what you said, what was the context in which Scripture was written, and what did this actually mean to the readers back then?

It's great. It's a little nerdy, but it's also fascinating. Some people don't like academic books. I always say that because for some, it just feels like that's not their cup of tea, and I get that. But this is kind of the perfect blend, nerdy enough for those who want to nerd out, but also accessible enough for anybody.

Okay, so stages, have we hit all five? Because acceptance and adaptation are different. Is adaptation the final one, or is there one more?

[00:43:45] Linda P Saunders: No.

[00:43:46] Stephanie Gutierrez: Hit all five again.

[00:43:47] Linda P Saunders: Yeah, the honeymoon phase, the frustration or distress stage, the adjustment stage, the acceptance stage. And the fifth one is what we call the reverse culture shock or reentering your own home culture. And that's one that sometimes is overlooked, but it's extremely important to address reintegration.

[00:44:13] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. And we've done multiple episodes on transitions and on reentry, and that's a whole nother topic. That's super important because that's harder than the first one on what most people say. Okay. And I think there was one more cultural intelligence we wanted to dig into.

[00:44:33] Linda P Saunders: "CQ" drive, "CQ" knowledge, "CQ" strategy, and "CQ" action.

[00:44:40] Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay, so strategy as I think the one we didn't dig into as much, we talked about action just now with the acceptance stage. So strategy, let's dive into that.

[00:44:48] Linda P Saunders: Strategy. Yeah. "CQ" strategy actually looks at how we take our drive, coupled with our knowledge, to create what we would consider an effective way to communicate cross-culturally. We don't want to feel like we don't want to be that ugly American.

There was a book that was written, I think in nineteen sixty-three or so. There's a newer version out now, a recent edition, a second edition of that. But we don't want to be that obnoxious American.

What we do want to do in the strategy stage is focus on what I know about this culture and the awareness of my own culture. How do I bridge these? How do I communicate so I am not sounding like an ugly American or an ethnocentric person?

How do I communicate with someone else to portray whatever it is—usually, in missionary cases, you're trying to share the gospel—but how do I share whatever communication I am trying to share, whatever information, without being offensive or downgrading or degrading? With the absence of that ethnocentrism.

[00:46:16] Stephanie Gutierrez: Absolutely. Okay. I loved today. It felt like a little culture class. Dr. Saunders, I just want to thank you for giving that to us today. And, you know, it's really valuable because I think people study this sometimes before they go on the field, but not always when they're there, because you're just busy with the doing of life. There are different things, and there may be people you know who are on the field who never had this kind of class or training before.

These are new terms for them. I mean, I didn't take a formal study like this before I went in. I married my husband, whose parents were Peruvian, and so I was like, well, Danny sort of knows some of it because of his parents, and he lived there from the time he was nine to eighteen, so he knows some. So I just thought, well, I’ll just kind of assimilate in. By the grace of God, living with family did help. But oh my goodness, had I known some of these things were going on, it would have saved me a lot of angst in the beginning. Not completely, I still would have been frustrated, but I think there would have been a lot more grace and a lot less judgment.

[00:47:15] Linda P Saunders: Yes.

[00:47:16] Stephanie Gutierrez: What I love about today is this was more than just a class. It was a conversation in which we got to really look at how does knowing these things, how does knowledge of these things actually affect our day to day life? So I'll be excited to hear from listeners, which cultural intelligence stood out most to you? Where are you strong? What do you feel are your biggest challenges? We always love to hear from listeners, so by all means shoot us a comment on social media or send us an email.

On that note, Dr. Saunders, how can people get in touch with you? Where can they find out more?

[00:47:54] Linda P Saunders: Well, they can go to my LinkedIn account or actually if they want, they can email me at Lsaunders16@liberty.edu. And also I just wanna mention if they're interested more in cultural intelligence, they can go to David Livermore's website Cultural Intelligence Center, CIC. And actually there's a free "CQ" assessment that they can take.

[00:48:19] Stephanie Gutierrez: I love that because who does not love a free assessment or a quiz? I know, I sure do. I love taking them all. It's fascinating to find out.

Let's end on one more note. Once they take that test and they get the results, what would be just a first step you would suggest to a missionary? One thing they could do?

[00:48:39] Linda P Saunders: Be intentional.

[00:48:41] Stephanie Gutierrez: There you go. There you go. Cultivating awareness, being intentional. That's the first step with just about everything.

[00:48:51] Linda P Saunders: Yeah.

[00:48:51] Stephanie Gutierrez: Love that. I love that. Thank you so much for joining us today. That was a fascinating conversation.

[00:48:57] Linda P Saunders: My pleasure, Stephanie.

[00:48:59] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Thank you for the way that you have served the world through missions work and the way that you now serve people through your cross-cultural work. We are grateful. So thanks for being with us today, Dr. Saunders.

[00:49:09] Linda P Saunders: Thank you.

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Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez

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Luke Eubank

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