Modern Day Missionaries

S07E04 Why Fundraising Is Essential to a Missionary’s Spiritual Formation with Heather Winchell & Andy Brennan

• Heather Winchell & Andy Brennan • Season 7 • Episode 4

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What does fundraising have to do with spiritual formation? You’re about to find out!

Maybe you have been approaching fundraising as just another task on your missionary to-do list. We’ve all been there! But what if it’s not just about the money?

Could fundraising actually be a tool God uses to transform you?

Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan of Provisio Fundraising unpack how the way we fundraise profoundly shapes our dependence on God, reveals how we see God, and reflects what our mission actually is.Whether you’re feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or simply looking for a fresh perspective, you’ll learn how to let fundraising form you instead of deform you, filling you with fresh purpose and confidence.

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

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[00:00:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to Modern Day Missionaries, a podcast by Modern Day Missions created for missionaries by missionaries. I'm your host, Stephanie Gutierrez. 

What does fundraising have to do with spiritual formation? You're about to find out. Heather Winchell and Andy Brennan of Provisio Fundraising unpack how the way we fundraise profoundly shapes our dependence on God and reveals how we see God and reflects what our mission actually is. Get ready to learn how fundraising is a tool God can use to profoundly transform you. 

[00:01:39] Stephanie Gutierrez: Hey, Heather and Andy. Thanks so much for joining us today.

[00:01:43] Heather And Andy: It is our pleasure. Yeah, thanks for having us.

[00:01:46] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. And we're talking about a subject that is near and dear and a little challenging to missionaries' hearts, and that is fundraising. And I know that this is your guys’... this is what you do day in and day out. Let's help serve people who are looking to better their fundraising efforts and grow. 

[00:02:03] Heather And Andy: And we like doing it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:02:05] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. And you're gifted to do it. So in talking about fundraising today, we're going to look at it a little bit differently. And so we think about fundraising, it's a part of our job. Like our job is missions, but then we’re kind of like, and I also have to do some fundraising, but no, it's an actual part of our job that God's given us to do.

So we recognize that a job shapes us and forms us. So if I have a job of being a construction worker, it's going to literally shape my body by strengthening certain muscles. If my job is in a really heavy intellectual capacity. Maybe I'm creating systems or I'm a computer programmer. It's going to form and shape my mind and my brain.

So our jobs shape us and form us. And, and I was thinking about this, Heather, because you and I had talked earlier, and you said the phrase fundraising as formation. So fundraising forms us. So I'd love for you to say a little bit more about that for a second. How does fundraising as part of our essential job and calling that's God given us, how does it form us and why is that important? 


[00:03:37] Heather And Andy: Yeah. So I guess a couple of things come to mind in that for me. And the first is just this understanding that we are all being formed, right? We don't move through life static. We are being shaped by the world outside of us and certainly our own internal world as well.  and with that,  and a quote that comes to mind,  it's from Dallas Willard.

He says, we live at the mercy of our ideas. Yeah. And really what that means is that our ideas actually give shape to the way we act in the world, the way we feel,  and the things that we do. And so, I think that Andy and I just really enjoy thinking about…okay, really all of life is formation and fundraising is especially a season,  a reality that forms you, right? The way you think about it, the way you act, those things are forming you. And so we just really feel like it's an invitation to see that God has so much purpose in that season and that it's not just about the money.

And I think back to a young lady that I was coaching years ago, maybe one of the first,  her name was Anna, and she said something to me after we were probably several months into our relationship and through our curriculum and we were just kind of checking in week after week. She says, I think every Christian should fundraise at some point in their lives. And that just felt so contrary, I guess, to what people normally think. And I was wrestling like, why did she say that? I think she had arrived at this conclusion that there was significant formation in her life because of the challenge of fundraising and the obstacles and the things that she, and the fears and everything else that she had to push through to get there. And I think she was reflecting on just how much that faith muscle was strengthened in this process. 

I think one other thing I would want to say, Stephanie, just because the word fundraising can actually be pretty agitating for some people, especially in the mission space, because I think there's been a lot of, I guess, evolution of thought in the way you think about how God provides. And I know that a lot of ministries have gone to using terms that align more with the heart, right? Ministry partnership development, friend-raising, people-raising, things like that. And we do still use the term fundraising because we believe that that is actually a concept that people have distorted ideas around. And so we want to use that term so that we can invite them into seeing it differently and hopefully changing the trajectory of those thoughts to be more aligned with the partnership and God's provision as opposed to the funds. Take some of the edge off of it. Yeah. Take some of this thing out.

[00:06:07] Stephanie Gutierrez: Redefine it, freshen it up a little, an old term that's still relevant now. And it's good. And when people are looking for fundraising help, I'm thinking of all of our missionary listeners who are probably going through the fundraising episodes and thinking, how's this going to help me? And maybe they're listening right now and arelike, well, are they going to help me? Are they going to tell me things that are gonna help me raise more money? 

Because I think oftentimes our default is, how can I just raise more? And I think in talking to you guys, there's this foundational thing that's got to happen in our hearts before we get to that point. So it's not that we won't talk about some practicality and get into some tools later on, but if we don't get this part right, then we're building on a faulty foundation.

And I love what you were saying there, Andy, too, about how someone had mentioned that all Christians should fundraise at some point. So accurate. I was reading A Spirituality of Fundraising, Henry Nouwen, a book that we all love. It's a good one. And yes, everybody should read it. It takes like 30 minutes to read. It's so short. He rewrites things so short and so powerful, which is great, but he talks about fundraising being as holy of a calling as preaching a message or serving the poor or anything like that. And you read that and you're like, but really? Because we think of it as this necessary evil, but no, God calls it to be something joyful that he calls us into.

But let's talk a little bit more too about how fundraising has the potential to change us. So how can God use fundraising as a tool to make us more like him?

[00:07:38] Heather And Andy: I feel like it's, it's all about dependence and control. I think if you were to walk into any church in America and ask them, Okay guys, you've heard this, this verse, God takes care of the ravens. How much more will he take care of you? I think everybody is going to say, yeah, I believe that a hundred percent, but how many of us, have been in a place in our life where we were forced to depend on him day to day like a bird does. Probably very few of us. And it's not that we're saying that,  we should live in,  complete depravity or we should go be a hermit somewhere and,  all this kind of stuff. But I do think,  we love Dave Ramsey. He's great. Like let's, yeah, let's save money. Let's be careful, let's be wise, let's be good stewards. But I do think you lose something when you aren't forced to depend on him to that extreme. And I think fundraising is a unique opportunity to experience that. 

Yeah, and I'm reminded,  so we, earlier this week had an opportunity to have someone on our podcast, Tony Dittman with Funding Tribe. And he was just talking about that. He always talks to people that enter into their cohorts and tells them like, hey, your character is going to change in this process. And I think to answer your question, Stephanie. We, in entering into dependence on the Lord and everything that is included in fundraising and then in ministry thereafter, we can't help but be positioned into greater and greater dependence on the Lord or greater and greater dependence on ourself.

And so that process is going to change you. It is going to change your character, because it's going to continue to put you in front of opportunities to trust and depend on the Lord or to. to try to do it yourself. 

I love Tony's example. I mean, we won't go into his whole story, but he was raising funds as part of a campus outreach, something like that. And I think he was just,  completely overwhelmed by the amount that he had to raise. And I think it was probably like 20 grand or something. And that for him was a substantial amount of money at that point in his life. Through a miraculous series of circumstances, he gets fundraised and then he's talking to us maybe, I don't know, 10, 15 years later, however long he's been doing this. And he's like, well, that was a challenge, but now the Lord continues to challenge me. And now he's increasing their budget by a hundred grand or whatever he was saying. And that even today, like that feels like so much money to him. And so the Lord keeps expanding his ability to have faith and to trust him in those things.

[00:10:25] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah.I love that we're saying a word that people probably are just shuddering a little bit when they hear over and over again. We're like dependent, be dependent, be dependent on God. Invite yourself to be dependent on God. People, be dependent on others. And everyone's like, no, I want to be independent. Like it's a miracle anybody becomes a missionary when you think about this huge aspect of what it is that we willingly step into to do what we do. Like thinking about what you guys just said, I mean, what happens if we find ourselves ever at a point in life when we are not dependent on God? That's horrible. That's a recipe for disaster right there. So man, as, as missionaries, what a blessing we have the opportunity to live in constant dependence at all moments, at all time.

[00:11:16] Heather And Andy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, and it's cool, right? Because there's a tension. Like, I really believe that as we are equipped in the Lord, we do become more and more capable of the work that he's given us. And yet, as we grow in that maturity and capability, We are becoming ever more dependent on him, which is a good thing, right?

Because, I mean, we know from the word that Jesus only did what the Father had him do. Like, God himself, in the flesh, was dependent on God the Father for the work that he did. So how much more do we need to be dependent on the Father, right?

[00:11:48] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. And maybe it's reframing the picture of what we think dependence looks like. I think sometimes, as Americans, for those of us who are Westerners or Americans listening, we can picture a dependent person as someone who's needy and despondent and like, I'm dependent. Or we think of the word codependent, like, Oh, it brings up all these bad images, but you guys just brought up Jesus. Jesus lived fully and absolutely dependent. Well, we don't, imagine Jesus in our minds is like, Oh God, Help me. 

[00:12:15] Heather And Andy: Right. No. 

[00:12:17] Stephanie Gutierrez: No, there's this confidence. Like what does confident dependence look like? 

[00:12:22] Heather And Andy: I think for me, like when you talk about Jesus being dependent, like that, that feels so contrary to a lot of people, but in reality, like, if you're getting into Luke, like Luke captures this, this wonderful passage where he, he notes every single person, not every single, but he notes some highlights of the people who are taking care of Jesus, who are giving to his ministry.

And there, I think he names like three or four women. He made a conscious choice to put that information in there, right? Like, why did he include those details? And I think right, out of anybody in the history of the universe, Jesus could have taken care of his own needs. And so, that's in there for a reason, and I think it's to model, like, that it's about partnership, and it's about doing this together. And it's hard when we come from America, when we're just like, individualism, and independence, and bootstraps mentality. It goes against our culture, but I feel like that's not right. We're not made to do what we're made to do. We're not made to labor and live outside of community and outside of our community, the body. 

Yeah. Yeah. And I think what I would add to that is just that I think that a confident dependence is knowing your part and knowing, knowing your part and knowing God's part.

Right. And I think what Andy said around community, we're not supposed to be codependent, but certainly interdependent. I mean, we were created to be in the context of other people and to need them as we need the Lord. 

[00:13:56] Stephanie Gutierrez: I love that: interdependent. As you guys were talking, I was remembering, I read the, I was reading the book Honest Advent this December, and there is a whole chapter that he has in there on Jesus being dependent. When you think about the fact that he was dependent on God, I think we can,  we can stomach that. But he was dependent on other people.

He was dependent on his mom and dad for food. He was dependent on his teacher to teach him. He was dependent on his friends at different times. On his disciples,  to maybe organize something that he asked them to do. He placed himself in a position where he was dependent on humans. That just kind of blew my mind a little bit.

So if Jesus can make himself interdependent, dependent on God and others, how much more are we also called to step into that great step of faith?. I mean, there's a risk involved in that because when you depend on people, sometimes they let you down, but there's so much opportunity in it, like you guys have talked about. 

Okay. So as we're talking about fundraising as formation, we've delved into a little bit how it can form us in good ways. So if it can shape us in good ways, can fundraising also shape us inappropriately and in a direction we don't want to go?

[00:15:16] Heather And Andy: I think so. I think that whenever fundraising lands on us and we, If we aren't holding rightly our part and God's part, then we can overemphasize our part and that can start to become something that creates more dependence on ourselves as opposed to an invitation to, to seek the Lord and just do our part.

And I think if you're fundraising on your own strength, and you are, maybe you're financially secure, or you have a fantastic system and formula, and you're really clever and you've thought it all out, and you just have contingency plans, and whatever the case may be, the temptation is to think like, look what I did, and not to be, not to learn that dependence up front, before you depart your, your home context. 

And then it's, if that's the case, you, you bring that onto the field with you, like, look what I can do if I just figure this out. And you create a formula for how to do ministry. And if that falls through, man, I feel like those consequences could be tragic. You're like, well, Lord, did I miss something? Did you really call me to this? You start to have all these doubts and second thoughts and everything kind of crumbles if you've been relying on yourself the whole time. So I think it can be catastrophic if that's not too strong of a word to use.

[00:16:51] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. Well, I would say pride is catastrophic. It's one of the seven deadly sins––kind of seems like the worst of those. And like you said, if it all falls apart, then you find yourself going, what, what happened? And pointing the finger and looking to blame. AndI think that's a good point to bring up because somebody could be listening and be like, I'm fine with fundraising.

Like if the money's coming in, if I've got things working out, why do I have to look at this foundational stuff? I'm raising money. It's fine. Because you're saying something could happen at a certain point. If we rely on our own strength, something's going to happen at a certain point. It's not going to necessarily always come in. There's going to be a crash. And then where do we go from there?

[00:17:33] Heather And Andy: Yeah. And that's our whole point, right? Like, it's not about the money. Like that's, we chose that for a reason, like it's, it's about more than that.

[00:17:48] Stephanie Gutierrez:  I'd love to hear for you guys, what does it look like when fundraising becomes deforming rather than forming? Cause Heather, I know you've got a story on this one, Andy, you might too, but Heather, are you, you, you hinted a little about yours to me, so I would love to hear it.

Yeah, yeah, I think, and again, it goes back to just rightly holding our part and God's part,  our part is to cast vision, provide invitation. God's part is always the outcome, right? That's not, that's not ours to own or ours to control, which is the same in ministry as well when we invite people to believe. 

And I think one thing that really stands out to me is, so my family and I were at a concert. It was a really fun concert. And during some of the breaks, they would have a representative from a world relief organization that would take the stage and share stories and share just kind of what's going on in other parts of the world and different ways that the audience could become engaged in that. And I think it was really fun. I'm so thankful for the work that these companies do so needed. And I just remember sitting there with my family thinking, ugh, because of the work I do, I just remember feeling like,  there is, there is such power in story. In the way we tell story and I, I feel very strongly that the stories we share, especially in moving people towards generosity or inviting them into generosity.

I think it's very important that those stories are shared with dignity and that they're not wielded in a way that we're trying to control the outcome, that we're trying to elicit funds to manipulate, right?

In the very like strongest sense of the word to manipulate. And I think we can do that without even meaning to when we when we walk into that feeling like we need to make something happen. So I, I think that I felt a little bit like that, that, That it felt like instead of being presented with an invitation to see what God might want to do and how he might want to use me in that, it felt kind of like a compulsion to give. And then kind of another element that just really made that feeling sink into me was that there was a moment later in the show where they had everybody that had made a decision to contribute to it raise their phone and turn the light on so that it was really clear who had given and who hadn't. And again, it's, I wanna be really generous of heart. And maybe I think it could be that they invited that so that people could see, wow, God moved in power and provided right. But also in that, how is that, how is that forming the audience?

Because then do people feel free to consider giving or do they feel like, Oh gosh, this is embarrassing. Like, I'm obligated. And then, we talk a lot about how fundraising is formation, but not just for the individual, but also for the church and for others. And I think this is a moment that, that experience, teaches somebody, right?

It forms them in a way. Forms the donor too, right? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it forms that person to then walk into the next opportunity. And if they even have a whiff that there's going to be a presentation and an ask, are they going to feel free to really engage with God on what they should do? Or are they going to feel compelled to give?

Or are they just not going to go because they're going to feel like to go means they have to say yes. Does that make sense?

[00:21:14] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. That's powerful, Heather, because that means that we have the opportunity––and I don’t know if opportunity is the right word––but we have the power basically to influence someone's perspective on generosity and giving,, and how we present it is going to perhaps turn them off to participating in the work that God's calling them to do.

So paying attention to how we communicate with others tells us something about ourselves, but it's also affecting them and telling them something about God. So that's a big deal.

[00:21:48] Heather And Andy: Yeah.

And the alternative to that would be, what if everybody always had a positive experience when somebody asked them for money?

[00:21:55] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes.

[00:21:57] Heather And Andy: The multiplication, what's the ripple effect of that, of like a whole congregation or a whole wave of churches in an area that just love to give? Because it's so refreshing and so gratifying and satisfying. 

There was another one you were talking to about, like,  was it an auction or was it like…? 

No, so yeah, as we were kind of talking about things before this, I shared another story with Andy that just really drives this point home for me. Andit was a local ministry, they do such great work in our community, and they have a yearly,  kind of fundraising gala, where they invite the community, they have somebody speak. And then they have an opportunity to give, and this speaker, the the tool that he leveraged in inviting people was that in proportion to the gift that they gave, they would be given an actual wrapped present. If it was a large financial donation, they would get a really large gift. Like gift to hold. If it was a smaller donation, they would have a smaller gift to hold. And again, I don't I'm not sure what exactly the aim behind that was but I the feeling in the room was Man, your gift is bigger than my gift. And what do I think about that? 

And so, it's just I think that we have to be aware of how the tools we're using, how that lands on people, what that's really communicating, whether it's putting the emphasis on the money and us, or whether it's putting the emphasis on the Lord and his provision. And so that was another story that came to mind. 

And I think we want to be, again, like you mentioned, we want to be gracious and assume that the strategy was, was very, was from a good place of like, we've got to hit these very important goals. I'll do whatever it takes to get there.  but I think the danger is inadvertently maybe we are belittling this kind of widow's might offering rather than honoring and and uplifting the widow's might. So that's, that's tough. Yeah. 


[00:24:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: That brings up another point. Andy, you referenced this a little bit too. It's making me think of this. We bring ourselves to these messages about  generosity and giving, and what do our personalities contain and how do those intersect with the message that's presented to us?

For example, what were the messages that my parents taught me about generosity or my church? Kind of like you were saying, like you were talking about churches all just getting together and everybody just loving to be generous because that was, that's just how they do it. So when we've got people who maybe they were raised by parents who just gave freely and like, it's so normal to give and it's so normal to fundraise. And then you've got other people who were like, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. We, we work for ourselves. So there's that. intersecting with the intention of somebody else and what does that produce? 

So kind of looking at that, how do we as fundraisers do our best to not only have good intentions, but to be careful that we're having the impact we want, realizing that we can't always fully control it because of people's personalities and backgrounds.

But what are some questions we can ask ourselves to try and think through what the impact might be so we aren't having those shaming experiences, kind of like what you were talking about there, Heather?

[00:25:25] Heather And Andy: Yeah, well, I don't know. I'd love to hear what your thoughts are, Andy, but I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is just filtering whatever you're planning through. Where does this put the emphasis? Does this put the emphasis on the money, or does this put the emphasis on the Lord? Does this put the emphasis on me,  or does this put the emphasis on the Lord? So that's an initial question that comes to mind. What do you think? Or maybe not even the Lord, but the mission. Does this put the emphasis on the money or on the mission? 

Because really, going back to that story that was told with the relief organization, I think that, I mean, obviously they should stand up there and call the church to do the work of the church. And I think they can do that boldly. I think they can ask for people to boldly engage that and expect that God is going to show up. But, but the follow up was, the emphasis was on the money and not the mission. So I think, I think that's a good clarification. Yeah, and I think if, if you're a first-time fundraiser and you're worried about, like, offending people or,  wanting to get your phrasing right, I think what you, you brought up earlier about dignity, like, always running it through that filter of dignity. Not just, will this image of this individual in this country who is hurting, will this be effective in pulling at somebody's heartstrings? The answer probably is yes, but is that the most ethical,  dignified way to raise your funds?  And not, I think not relying on,  strategies and formulas. We talk about that a lot too. 

I think people often have this idea like, Hey, I'm going to offend somebody. Also the other side of that, I'm going to offend somebody and that's a huge obstacle for so many people. But I think the reality is more often than not is almost everybody is going to be,  just thrilled that you're stepping forward in obedience and you're doing something that the Lord is asking you to do. And especially if, if you're like majority American, like,   They know the drill. They've done this before.

They give at the office. They give at church. And so you're walking into some very kind of well-established,  cultural currents, right? So,  I think people, they know what to expect. They know,  They know this arena,  and they're probably going to be happy and do it with, with dignity and, and just put the vision out there and the need and make the ask and then allow the Holy Spirit to do what he does.

[00:28:22] Stephanie Gutierrez: That's so good. So I'd love to transition into a question about specifics here for a second, because I know people love to get down to the nitty gritty, and we've talked about forming versus deforming. 

So to bring that into a specific place, do you guys think there are some tools that are better at forming as well than others?Or are there some that have a natural forming or deforming effect that we need to be more cautious with? I mean, I guess tools, you think like, if I pick up a knife versus I pick up a hammer versus I pick up a pencil. I mean, all of those are different types of tools. A tool itself is neutral, but yeah, some lend themselves, a pencil and a sword lend themselves to slightly different tasks.

[00:29:07] Heather And Andy: I think that it probably does primarily start with how you're holding it, right? Because a tool is a tool, but if you don't use it rightly, if you don't hold it rightly, then you can, you can very early get into some big problems. 

This is a totally different type of example, but,  People in my family have gotten into weightlifting and there's just a really big difference if you know how to lift that weight and if you just kind of like do whatever to get it up, like it, it can like hurt your back,  and I think, I think that my, the first thing I would say is that with any tool, it's really going to depend on the way you wield it and the way that you hold it. That is going to be the primary way. I think that it can be forming or deforming. Beyond that, I think, gosh, I just, I think it's such a gift that we have so much freedom, right? Like the word says that, and I think Paul, yeah, it is Paul, says that all things are beneficial, but they might not be, I'm sorry, Paul says that all things are permissible, but they might not be beneficial.

And I really think that when it comes to tools, people should weigh that,  for one person, a stock template on a thank you note to a supporter might be okay for them to use for another person that actually might be deforming because it actually might be impeding them from pushing into the discomfort of channeling their gratitude in a very specific way, right?

It might, it might be enabling them to bypass really thinking about what their supporters have done and how that really impacts their life. So yeah, I think those would be a couple of my thoughts. 


Well, I like what you said, Stephanie, that the tool is neutral. So, like money is neutral,  I think,  the different methods that you approach are neutral. But I think if you hold on to one methodology,  too fervently, and you're like, this is going to do it for me, this is the skeleton key to my success,  this chainsaw works and it always works. Well, maybe you need A Windex? Windex, yeah, yeah, just put some Windex on it, that'll fixit. Actually, maybe you need to be more, a little more adaptable, and you need to try something else, and you need to consider, maybe the Lord is asking you to approach it differently, and to release. Some of your expectations. One of the analogies we often use is fundraising. It's not a formula. It's more like a recipe. And you're not necessarily even cooking the same thing. You're all just making a dessert. Right? And, and so whether you're sifting the flour or you're, you're refrigerating the dough before you put it in the oven,  you're, you're going to get a product in the end.

And there's often different paths to get there. something delicious.  but they're all good. And so to say that, no, you have to do exactly this way. Well, you're not taking into account. What if I'm cooking at elevation? and it's different here. I got to do things differently. I have to adjust. Yeah. I think the other thing that comes to mind as Andy was talking is just, I think it's probably deforming if you become dependent on the tool.

Yeah.  which there's a tension there because there's,  it's not like wrong to depend on a tool. I depend on my dishwasher every day, right? His name's Joel. His name's Joel. Yeah. but but I think, yeah, and just back to what Andy just said about the formula, I think, I think a lot of times people can really try to make this into a formula and we would encourage them to think of it more as a framework or a scaffolding because there's some movement.

So with a formula, I think all parts have to be right on for that formula to work out. Yeah, you're dependent on each of those things going right. Whereas with a framework with scaffolding, you're free to take the best of it and,  pivot as you need to.

[00:33:09] Stephanie Gutierrez: I love that you guys are metaphor people because I'm a metaphor people too. So I'm loving scaffolding and framework and really loving recipe too because food, I mean, who doesn't love food? 

And I'm, I'm thinking of, okay, the missionary as a chef and I love that or a cook,  you don't have to be a professional, you can be a home cook as they say on TV sometimes. And as a home cook who's cooking for others, I've got my style. I've got my way of doing things that, that is different from everybody around me. But also as I'm cooking and I'm inviting different people to my table, I'm also recognizing that that person might have a gluten allergy and that person might not like mushrooms.

and that person might be really into sauces. And so I might adapt my recipe a little bit, depending on who I'm cooking for. So I've got my base recipe, but that person doesn't want cheese, you know? And so even with our supporters, we've got who we are, and we're developing our own voice, our own way of doing things.

And then we're shifting it a little bit, depending on is this person older and they're not really like a big technology person. So they would prefer a phone call.  I love thinking about tools in this neutral space and also thinking about,  we talk about social media, I think so much nowadays. So I don't want to certainly beat a dead horse, but I do think of tools like that, that I think sometimes are. they're not inherently bad, but they do have the potential to suck our time away or get us to compare or do things like that. And so it's not to not use social media as a tool. I think it can be a phenomenal tool, a fantastic tool. It has served me so well over the years in that fundraising space. 

But if, if I were to give,  social media as an example of a tool that could potentially suck us into a place we want to, we don't want to go,  are there any other ones that you would say? Okay. Use this tool just with caution, like a very sharp knife, pick it up. But as you said, Heather, learn how to wield it well and wield it very carefully because it's maybe a little sharper than some other ones. 

[00:35:15] Heather And Andy: This might not be popular, and I don't know, maybe I'll adjust it as time goes on, but I just, I really think that we have such cool capabilities with AI coming onto the scene in such big, loud ways, right? I mean, I have so many emails in my inbox saying, AI can build a course for you, AI can,  write this for you. And AI is so cool. And I think it's a tool we are free to engage and I really think we should be slow to give away our voice or the way we would want to communicate and the intention that we put into that communication. 

And so I think I would just encourage people, as this becomes something that's offered to you more and more in the different streams of your life, just really stop and think, like, is this, is this allowing me to love my supporters more? Sometimes shortcuts are okay. We never want to be  over realized in this, but, but actually, is it, but is that shortcut going to cost you something in your own character or your own felt connection to those people? Yeah. Right, right. So I think would you, would you want to start taking shortcuts in your ministry?

Like in the people you're meeting with, sharing the gospel with? Right. Should you, probably not. Should you, ai, should you ask Chat GPT to write you a sermon? Probably not. Probably not. Yeah, so I think, I think like you said, it's a sharp knife and I think it can be used, but you just really want to make sure you don't cut the wrong thing. 

It's interesting that you say that. I got an email recently here at the office and I don't remember exactly what it said, but I remember reading it and they had pulled different things in from my life and they had,  I know that at this workplace,  this is important, and emphasized different, different strengths or different experiences at those different places that I had worked. And then they asked me to buy insurance. And I was like, wow, somebody must have really done their research on this. That's, that's, that's incredible. It's very personal. And my colleague was like, that's AI, that's a hundred percent AI. I'm like, Oh, delete. A, I don't want to buy insurance. B, that feels so dirty and conniving. Like you're trying to, you're trying to convince me that you know something about me and it just felt, it was a terrible taste. Yeah.

[00:37:49] Stephanie Gutierrez: That's a great example of a sharp knife.

[00:37:51] Heather And Andy: Yeah. But I think, I think in communication, like I work with my clients about this, like. Let's think of a communication strategy and what is the least obstacle for me and what is the least obstacle for my recipients and for my donors? What's the neutral territory?

So if you love TikTok, Oh, bad news. I'm sorry to say.  Or if you love Signal, that's a great one, right? But none of your donors are on Signal. It's probably too much to ask them to go and download that.

[00:38:28] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah, definitely.

[00:38:30] Heather And Andy: So you're asking constantly, like, what is the, what is the easiest thing for me to communicate regularly, frequently, and what's the easiest way for them to consume that information? So, it can be different for everybody, but for most people, I'm like as, as, as hard as it, as hard as it is a lot of your donors are like my age are on Facebook. I know that's not hip anymore, but I, I feel like there's still some strategy there. Actually, I had a teammate who hated Facebook, a little older than me, just loathed it. But as part of his, of his efforts to maintain connected connectedness to his donor base, every week he would put in his calendar, get on Facebook. And he would just post,  post a picture or make a few comments and then he'd peace out. It was like, it was like discipline for him. So I think we have to think about it a little removed as well. Yeah. 

And I have one more thought just to your prior question, Stephanie, specifically with AI to kind of bring my point home. Andy and I are podcast hosts as well. I think that we do use AI sometimes to make the blurbs that go out on social media and I feel okay with that. I wouldn't feel okay if Andy and I started using AI to basically like give us a script for the episode that we were going to record, right? Because it would just be a different level of giving up our voice, and it would be allowing the tool to step in, in something that actually doesn't, doesn't need our heart behind it, versus something that does. And so, yeah, that's kind of a practical application. Full disclosure. Yeah.

[00:40:12] Stephanie Gutierrez: Oh, yeah. And I think most people are,  I've, we've used it to help put together talking points to share with people as well. Or I'll use chat GPT as a little brainstorming buddy. I'm like, Hey, what do you think about this? Or what's a different way of saying that? And as somebody who is an introvert, but also like to brainstorm with people, he can be like my little friend.

And so, Yeah. I might not use exactly what he's saying, but whatever his name is, I feel like I should give him or her a name. Yeah. they can help you kind of think things through. So it's all these ethical questions I think are so good to ask rather than saying full yes or full no.

Like, okay, well, how can I use this tool, Lord, in a way that's God-honoring in a way that's forming me well? And I think if you use a tool and afterwards you feel a little like ugh. Afterwards, pay attention to that feeling. Maybe it's good to be like, okay, did I, do I like how I use that? Do I feel weird  because it was uncomfortable and I've never used it before? Do I feel this because I hate Facebook, or do I feel like that, like a check in my spirit? Maybe I should ask somebody else who I trust, like what they think. In any tool, Lord, how can I use this in a way that's God honoring and that's forming me well and helping me to connect with people in a life-giving way rather than manipulative way or a scummy way, like you were saying there, Andy?

[00:41:38] Heather And Andy: Yeah and yeah, to what you just said, I think that another tool that's maybe more commonly used in the fundraising space. Currently, it's just like your namestorm list, right? I think that the namestorm list is a tool that can be so helpful and just widening perspective on, who do I know? Like, who have I already had opportunity to meet? Who already has context for who I am in this world? Super helpful. 

When finding names for that namestorm list starts to become, like, bigger in your mind than the presence of God, then I think it's not as helpful, right? Because I think that,  I think that's maybe, And what is the word I'm looking for? Indication. Yeah, that's that's an indication that a tool is starting. You're starting to become more dependent on the tool than kind of like on the Lord's overall presence and equipping to use the tool. 

[00:42:44] Stephanie Gutierrez: To kind of wrap this up then for, for a missionary who's listening, who's, who's feeling kind of like, okay, I don't know if I've really been engaging fundraising in a God-honoring way. And I'd like to make some shifts. What is a good next step for them? Where can they start? 

[00:43:00] Heather And Andy: Well, I would say you're normal, right? I think we're all going to hit spaces and have days where we're like, man, I just don't know about this.  so be encouraged because you're not alone in that.  I would say the first place that I would point people is towards some kind of community, whether that's a coach or what we call a core team, so you can be vulnerable with them.People who know you that can pray with you. That can encourage you. That can reflect back to you what they're seeing that maybe you don't see. I think that's helpful. 

Yeah, like, riffing off of the core team idea. We talk about this all the time, but in what other job do you not get feedback about your performance? Like, you always get feedback. Like you're working at a professional job, we have like an annual review, right?  missions, I feel like you don't often get that. Maybe you get it from your team. Maybe you get it from someone who's an authority, a team leader, a city director, or whatever,  to a certain extent, but you never really get it from your network back home. So to have a core team of advisors, And you're like, well, can you hold me accountable? Can you pray for me? Can you encourage me? Can you also tell me how you felt about my communication this year? And how did I come across? Could you tell I was using Chat GTP? Probably, right? So having somebody to inviting them into that level of authority and just,  partnership in your, in your ministry, I think it's pretty powerful.

[00:44:35] Stephanie Gutierrez: It's a great question just to ask people how you're coming across. I love that. Well, okay. And so Heather, you kind of hinted at coaching there a little bit. Talk for just for a second about what you guys offer at Provisio and how people can contact you because coaching is a great next step.

[00:44:51] Heather And Andy: Yeah, absolutely. So, Provisio has a few different lanes of offerings. I mean, we've got the podcast It's Not About the Money that Andy and I co-host and that we show up to without being fed by Chat GPT, right? Yes, we have the podcast. 

We do also have an online flexible asynchronous training program. Really the value behind that was that it is accessible flexible and affordable for people. So you can find that on our website and then we have an option. We have an option with that to have one one-on-one coaching as you move through that curriculum to hopefully take those concepts and make them convictions?

[00:45:33] Stephanie Gutierrez: I love that people who get coaching with you guys will get coaching, not just on the what, but on the heart behind it all, as you've talked about today. So that would just make me feel very safe as a missionary agent, but that's the perspective that it's coming from. So thank you guys so much for taking the time to come on and share that with, with us today.

I just really appreciate it. So on behalf of me and all of our listeners, thank you, Heather and Andy, we really appreciate you.

[00:45:58] Heather And Andy: Thanks. Thank you, Stephanie.




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Stephanie Leigh Gutierrez

Host
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Luke Eubank

Producer