S06E11 Help Me Understand My Cross-Cultural Teammates with I'Ching Thomas

How do you handle team conflicts when your cultural values clash? What’s the secret to building trust in a team of people from very different backgrounds?

You may have learned about the culture you are going to serve, but did you learn about the cultures of the people you are serving with? Missions is much more complex and beautiful than we could ever know!

The makeup of teams serving overseas are changing. If you don’t already serve with people from various countries, you likely soon will. This is an exciting challenge, and one we need to know more about.

In this episode, we’re joined by cross-cultural expert I’Ching Thomas, who gives excellent advice on how to build strong relationships among culturally diverse teams.

With real-life examples and strategies, I'Ching helps us explore how to bridge cultural gaps, deepen trust, and build a unified team that reflects the love of Christ. Don’t miss this conversation on creating stronger, more resilient cross-cultural teams!

✍️ In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How we can bridge cultural gaps on diverse mission teams
• Practical ways to build trust and unity among teammates from different backgrounds
• Tips for handling team conflicts when values and communication styles clash
• Why it's essential to approach our teammates with humility and openness
• How we can create a strong, Christ-centered team culture

💡Questions to Ponder as You Listen:

• How do I usually respond when misunderstandings arise with teammates from different cultures?
• What cultural biases might I bring into my team interactions?
• Am I intentional about building relationships, or do I focus mainly on tasks?
• How often do I pause to truly listen and learn from my teammates' perspectives?
• What steps can I take to create a more inclusive and understanding team environment?

Thanks for listening! Email us your questions at care@modernday.org

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Chapters

• 0:54 Challenges of Cross-Cultural Teams
• 1:43 Building Trust and Bridging Cultural Gaps
• 4:38 Communication Styles in Cross-Cultural Teams
• 19:27 Leadership Dynamics in Diverse Teams
• 28:18 Practical Tips for Team Unity
• 43:17 Conclusion and Resources

Transcript

[00:00:00] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome to Modern Day Missionaries, a podcast by Modern Day. Missions created for missionaries by missionaries. I'm your host, Stephanie Gutierrez. 

How can we build trust with teammates who have dramatically different backgrounds than us? Mission teams today are more diverse than ever. And that's both amazing and really hard sometimes. Today, I sit down with cross-cultural expert, I’Ching Thomas, and she shares some down to earth advice and real life stories on deepening trust, bridging cultural gaps and building relationally strong teams.

[00:00:36] Stephanie Gutierrez: Welcome I’Ching, it's so good to have you with us today. 

[00:00:40] I'Ching Thomas: Thank you. I'm so thrilled that I could join you this time. 

[00:00:44] Stephanie Gutierrez: We are going to have a good conversation. I know because we've had many good conversations. So this is just a continuation of ones that we’ve had. 

And the topic that we’re digging into today, which I'm really looking forward to, is serving on cross cultural teams. And I'm just thinking of our listeners now who are listening today. I'm wondering how many of them, how many of all of you have served on a team with somebody from more than one culture? Because I know that wasn't traditionally, I think how things began, you would find yourself with this group or, you know, even Americans, you'd kind of see people go overseas and they'd have what was called like the compound or the bubble. And those still exist. 

But more and more, I am talking to people who are not only serving a different culture in a different culture, but serving with multiple cultures on their teams. And I'd love to hear your perspective. I mean, you know, with OM and all of the rich experience that you have, I Ching, what are you seeing? What have you experienced and what are you seeing in terms of cross cultural teams? 

[00:01:43] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, well, I mean, when it comes to cross cultural teams, it's, it's kind of normal to me, you know, it's, it's, it's business as usual. I mean, as a Malaysian, I grew up in a diverse context, culturally, ethnically, as well as religiously. So, so going into a cross cultural team has never been weird for me.

But of course, then I realized that's not the case for some people. In fact, it's not the case for a lot of people. And that's not just for the ones who come from the Global North or from Western countries. Even from majority world countries, let's say, if you are an African, you might be working among mostly Africans, you know, typically, or grew up in a country that's more monocultural.

Um, and then when you enter into global missions and in today's world of global missions, which has changed a lot, as you said, then you realize that, oh, this is, this is not what I'm sort of used to, you know. So, yeah, to really answer your question, I think, with regards to, um, teams, uh, what would mission teams look like in the future, I, I believe. And it's not just the future, I think the future is kind of here already. Um, I think it will be very diverse, and not just culturally and ethnically, but I think diverse in a sense where, um, generationally as well. Because you can see Gen X, you know, Gen Millennial, Gen Z, and, the Alpha generation is coming up already.

So I think just diverse in terms of generations, languages, culture, skill sets as well. You know, there's a lot of talk about marketplace workers or people who bring their professional skills to the missions field. So I think the diversity is going to be on so many different levels with regards to teams of, well, I would say today and the future going forward.

[00:03:53] Stephanie Gutierrez: Which is really significant because you think about how a missionary is prepared in the past and some probably still prepare today. You learn the culture of the people you're going to serve, but what happens if you do that and then you go overseas, but you've got other people from different countries on your team and you're like, well, I was not prepared for that.

And I know in, in talking with, with people and I mean, statistics show it out that one of the primary reasons people leave the field is team dynamics, conflict on teams that they can't resolve. So what good does it do me if I'm prepared to serve people of another culture, but cannot communicate well with the people on my team? 

So that can feel kind of overwhelming. I mean, if I'm a new missionary and I'm listening to this, I go, Oh my gosh, how am I supposed to learn all of these different cultures? So I would ask you, being that you have such rich experience with this, what are some general things that people can do to learn generally how to interact with multiple people from different cultures? 

[00:04:52] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I remember my time in Turkey. Um, we often joke about how it's easier to work among the people that we've gone to work with than to work with our own teams because often the challenges and the conflicts come from team relationships rather than our relationships with the people that we're trying to serve on the field. Um, so I think, I think it's great. 

Some of the things that we are already doing with regards to preparing ourselves to the missions feel like learning, well, learning the language sometimes, you know, um, as well as learning about the local culture. These are great things and, and, um, that has a lot of content for our ministry.

But like you said, what about, um, what prepares us to work with our team members? And I think it's not rocket science. I think it's, it's really what Scripture teaches us to, you know, to, um, to how to love one another and treat one another. And so I would imagine, you know, immediately I would think of humility, you know, um, it's just going in recognizing that, um, you know, I did not come to just serve. I'm also here to learn, you know, I think often as missionaries, we go in and we think, oh, we're here to serve, you know, and of course we are there to serve, but at the same time, there's so much that we need to learn as well, and not just from the local people that we're serving, but from one another, you know. So just to see, humility, and of course, coupled by just this willingness to step out of our comfort zone.

You know, sometimes we, we are willing to step out of our comfort zone for the people that we serve on the ground that we're trying to reach, but we are not as open or willing to step out of our comfort zone for our colleagues. You know, because there's this sense that, you know, oh, they should be more gracious towards me if I make a mistake. 

So, or I come in and believe that this is the way to how we do things. And this is the Christian way. What is the Christian way, right? Because we all come from different cultures and we see things through different cultural lens and we value different things. And it's not wrong or bad, it's just different, you know? Uh, so this willingness to step out of our comfort zone, to listen and to be willing to, uh, submit to one another, again, scriptural and biblical, um, you know, submit to one another in, uh, out of love for Christ and for each other. 

So these are just, uh, very simple principles, but it's very difficult when you try to do it, you know, and, and this is where the Holy Spirit comes in and this is where intentionality and this is where, um, we truly ask ourselves, why are we here for, you know, what does it mean to be the body of Christ?

What does it mean to have been called into the kingdom? Because we need to recognize that as we work in teams, this is not just, you know a work team because members of the team, our team is also members of our family, family of God. And this is eternal. So I suggest we start learning how to get along with each other and love one another, um, from now on. So, yeah. 

[00:08:33] Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay. That's key because like you said, it seems so obvious, but we go with these hearts sometimes to serve overseas and we've got, you know, all that, the humility and that I want to serve. And I mean, our hearts are just great towards the people we're serving, but yeah, towards the people on our team, it can feel like get it together. We need to get this job done. 

And so if we can shift and, and, and ask God, I mean, what would it look like if we said, God, not only give me a heart for the people I'm serving, but give me a heart for the people on my team. That's really, again, it seems so obvious, but I think that's actually really insightful because I don't think that's what we think when we initially go overseas.

I don't know that that's at the forefront of people's minds. You know, we think about the cultures we're called to or the country we're called to, but what about the team that we’re called to?

I love that you brought up character over knowledge because sometimes it can feel like, well, if I just, you know, what culture is my teammate from? Maybe that will help me. And not that that's not bad. It's great to learn and research. I love that. But if we put the emphasis on those character qualities that you talked about, humility, submission, forgiveness, grace, all of those things, they'll take us a lot farther than simply knowledge alone. 

[00:09:55] I'Ching Thomas: Absolutely. And you know, and the other thing too, is how people around us are always observing us, right? And if you are out on the field, people will see, okay, you talk about being followers of Jesus and, you know, the power of the gospel. But if that's not obvious in your relationship with, um, your teammates, then that's going to defeat the whole purpose, right?

I mean, it's like, if you talk about the power of the gospel to, to restore relationships, to bring reconciliation, right? To love one another. But if that's not obvious in our day to day relationship with one another, then there's no reason why anyone would want to be, you know, followers of Jesus because I don't want to be like that.

[00:10:50] Stephanie Gutierrez: So I would say digging in a little bit more…we talked about the character piece, which I think is critical, foundational. But then if we move into some of those actual communication pieces when you are a part of a cross cultural team, what are some of those subtle cultural differences that people can be aware of? How can we attune ourselves to those a bit more? And feel free to use any examples that you've had too, because you’ve been a part of many cross-cultural teams.

[00:11:11] I'Ching Thomas: Wow. How much time do you have? Yeah, and of course every team is different, and every individual is different, right. On one hand, we don't want to generalize and stereotype, but on the other hand, there are some, some just general, um, similarities, let's just say with people from different cultures. So I would call myself someone from the majority world culture and being ethnically Chinese and Malaysian, I would say, um, let's focus on communication.

Um, my way of communication is probably more indirect compared to someone who probably is from the West, you know? Uh, for example, one of my colleagues, uh, he's Dutch and, you know, he would, if he has a question, or if there's something that he's not sure about, or he needs clarity, he'll just like, he goes, we'll start a meeting, and he'll immediately say, um, so, I have a problem with this. You know, I have a question about this. Why did you do this? 

You know, that would not be my way of doing it. You know, I would probably approach it from firstly, I'll ask you about how you're doing. I'll ask about your family, you know, because cultures that are more, um, that communicate more indirectly, would, I guess, value relationship more? Not that the others don't. Right? But just the way we express how we value our relationships. We want to preserve the harmony. Um, we want to cultivate our relationship because we believe that's the way to get things done, right? Whereas those from more direct communication believe that clarity and efficiency is very important in getting things done.

So we have to be more task oriented, whereas those from indirect communication cultures would probably be much more, um, relationship oriented, you know. So, again, it's not, uh, it's not one or the other, it's really both, right? I mean, if we just value relationships and just, uh, preserve harmony, you know, then things will not get done. There will not be clarity because we're always trying to sort of quote whatever, you know, um, things we want to say. 

Uh, so for example, in a conflict situation, you know, there will be certain things that we need to bring it up and have clarity, right? And this is where someone who's from a more direct communication culture, uh, would bring strength into, look, what, what is the issue here, for example, you know, let's bring clarity that, you know, um, of course, then someone from, um, um, from more indirect communication, which, which want to preserve the harmony would say, Yes, let's talk about this, you know, uh, let's, let's, let's listen to each other, you know, kind of thing.

So I think both bring their strengths and of course, you know, both also have their weaknesses. 

[00:14:28] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about how sometimes we assign character traits to the ways people communicate. Uh, like for example, You know, when I first went to Peru and it's an event oriented culture instead of a time oriented culture, I felt like people were rude because they were late to things. Sometimes I felt like there was dishonesty because it was a saving face culture. So I'm like, people here are dishonest. People here are rude. I gave character traits to cultural things, which was not really fair. I mean, for somebody, I'm listening to your example about someone, you know, a Dutch person being very direct and just wanting clarity to them. They're like, well, I'm being clear. I'm getting to the point. But for somebody from an indirect culture listing, they might say, well, you're rude. And you don't value relationship. 

And so what if we all can just pause and think for a second, what would be an example of a time when I assigned a character trait, a negative character trait to somebody who was simply communicating in a way that was normal in their culture?

So, and so we brought up a couple there and I love that you talked about that indirect versus direct. What might be some other, um, contrasting forms of communication that you see between cultures? 

[00:15:49] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, I think just the, um, the asking of questions. So, and this has got to do again with leadership as well as team. I give an example of when I first started leading a team, there were a couple of Germans, um, one South African and one from Latin America. And I remember, uh, as the leader, I felt like, again, um, from the Global South, majority world, and I lead, uh, based on what I believe good leadership would be, right?

So we make decisions and I make certain decisions and before I know it, my German teammate was asking me, like, why did you do this? What's the point of this? And, you know, and I felt really disrespected and offended. It's like, do you not trust me as your leader to make these decisions? You know, why are you asking me all these questions? Like, I made this decision based on all the fact finding I've done, I've talked to all of you, um, and this is what I feel the best thing to do. Um, but she was asking me, and I felt really threatened, like, why are you doing this? You know, I felt really ambushed. But then it got to a point and she said, No, the reason why I asked you all these questions is because I care and this is important, you know, it's, it's not personal, it's not, it's not that I don't trust you, but this is important. I feel this is important for us. And that's why I asked all these questions. And then I began to realize, Oh, yeah, I immediately jumped into conclusion, you know, and I realized that I, too, need to give benefit of a doubt to the other person. I need to step out of my comfort zone and ask, like, why are you asking these questions, you know?

And I think it boils down to it's not always about us. You know, it's not always about this. And if we go through life, um, and in so many different aspects, when we realize it's not always about us, I think life would be much easier for us, you know? 

[00:17:55] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. What a, how great that you asked questions of her to kind of figure out where she was coming from. And that's such a great way to discover it. I mean, if, if someone is consistently direct by just simply having some metacommunication and just talking about your communication and saying, Hey, you know, when you ask me a lot of questions, That's making me feel like, um, you don't trust me. And then, you know, she has the opportunity to say, Oh my gosh, I was trying to express engagement and interest and care.

And so if we can just have those communication or have those conversations, man, there's so much we can discover. 

[00:18:34] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah. And the thing was it was very difficult for me to even get to the point when I asked her that because I had to step out of my comfort zone and be direct and ask what is happening. Why are you doing this? You know, because that would not be my default. I would probably not even bring this up, but it was troubling me so much, you know, that I, I needed clarity and I, and this is the point where I want to give a benefit of a doubt to this sister and I, you know, she's not, from what I know, she's not, you know, she doesn't have her own agenda. She cares about what we do, you know, and I'm like, what is happening? I really want to find out. And so I, I stepped out of my comfort zone and went direct, you know, her way of thinking. You know, communications and asked and I'm glad I did. You know, uh, it was hard, but I'm glad I did. 

But I mean, to your point, you asked what else other than direct and indirect communication, I think, and I speak of this as a leader because I, you know, I, I lead teams that are diverse and cross cultural. It's, uh, some. In some cultures, leadership, you know, leaders would give the team, you know, voice and vote. And this is much more egalitarian, you know, where team members would have a voice in decisions that are made and would have a vote as well in the final decision. And in some cultures, you know, team members may have voice, but not necessarily a voice the vote. Um, and I think in many ways, probably that's how I, I lead. And I would say again, generalizing, but I think there's a lot of truth in that is that, uh, majority world leaders tend to lead that way where I will do fact finding, I will ask you what you think, and I will, you know, but ultimately I will be the one making the decision, and you will not have a vote in the decision. 

So it's also understanding some of these um, leadership dynamics and the differences between the cultures that would be very important because obviously you talk about teams and often teams will have a leader and depending on where your leader is from, he or she might lead a team according to who or, uh, he or she is. And that means from his or her own cultural lens and cultural background. Mm-Hmm. 

[00:21:12] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. Well, and that's so good. I mean, you can do that in any type of team where you have a leader, but especially in one like this is learn your leader. I mean, I remember all the times that we've served under leaders, we've just made it our goal to study the leader as if we were getting a degree in them.

Like how do they tick and how do they do things? And when you bring in another culture, that adds a whole other dynamic because, you know, we've got direct and indirect. Communication that comes from cultures. But then we've also got direct and indirect communication that comes from personalities. I mean, you can find an American in a direct culture who's super hesitant to say things and is conflict avoidant. And then you can find a direct person coming from an indirect culture. So it's this combination between culture and personality. 

Uh, but I love that you, you bring that up as get to know your leader, find out how they tick. And it's not so that you can change who you are, but you can make some adaptations and it does help you know what questions to ask and, and what are the best ways.

And that's not to put all the onus on the team member. I've seen that happen before. No leaders need to take, uh, leadership. They need to take authority. They're not, not take authority. They need to take ownership and responsibility. Same thing to find out how do my team members communicate? You know, if I'm a really direct leader and I've got a bunch of indirect people on my team, and I know that's the example we keep coming back to, but it's a really, I think a practical one. If I'm just blasting my poor indirect team out with all of my super clarity, they might really feel like there is no relationship and like, does he, he or she even care about me? So it is, it goes both ways, but I'm glad, I'm glad that you brought in that leadership dimension. 

Okay. So we've got direct and indirect. We've talked about, um, what would be, uh, some other ones you brought in the leadership piece. We talked a little bit about saving face. Maybe that would be another, a good one. 

[00:23:05] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, um, or the other, I was thinking of high context and low context as well. And that has got to do with our, um, our intentionality in watching and understanding, um, body language and nuances in communication. 

Because let me give you an example, right, in a, in a high context culture and most, I would say a lot of majority world cultures are high context. And this is the case where very little needs to be said, but a lot is actually, very little words are used to say a lot through body language, you know, just where a person sits, you know, how a person looks at another person when it comes to making decisions. Um, these are all, everything is contextual. You know, it's not the words that are spoken that are communicated, but it's the body language.

It's, it's the, um, it's the signals and the signs, you know, and things like that. Whereas, of course, low context, you know, cultures would be more direct because. You know, uh, I just say, and this is the context, this is what I'm trying to say, and I'll communicate it through words. Um, so this is related to the indirect communication and direct communication, the high context and the low context. And I think often this can be one of the key, um, misunderstandings when we get, you know, that, that, that, that happens within teams as well, you know. 

[00:24:41] Stephanie Gutierrez: That is such a good one, I’Ching, and I don't think it's one that's talked about nearly as much. Could you give an example of what that might look like of a high context and low context person interacting? 

[00:24:53] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, I think so. So for an example, right, you are in the meeting, um, and you have a couple of different people, a couple who is low context, a couple that are high context, you know, um, and you will realize that. A person from from high context will probably make a comment, you know, like, um, we can talk about this, Peter, you know, um, about this decision that we need to make, right?

Um, that really communicates a lot that is in there. It's not just about talking to each other about the decision. There could be a lot more going on. It could be like. If I do this, you know, what will I get in return? Or do I do this? Is this respectful for you? So it also depends on the status and the hierarchy, right?

So depending on who makes this statement, there is power in that statement as well, that's communicated. Um, again, because this is high context, it's hard for me to give an example without like a true, you know, um, whereas someone who is in low context in that meeting, all they hear is like, oh, you guys are going to talk about this and come to a decision.

So they will take that at face value without recognizing there's a whole lot of dynamic that's going on that is not spoken there. You know. 

[00:26:21] Stephanie Gutierrez: An example. You know, it almost makes me think of, like, sometimes, you know, for people who are listening who are maybe in an American context, which we've got a lot, sometimes I'll watch those old BBC movies, and you'll see these, you know, kind of wealthy families all interacting, and everything has meaning, like you said, like, where they sit and how they stand and how they turn their shoulder and how they hold their fan. 

And to your point, it's not a lot that's said, but everything communicates something, but to somebody in a low context setting who is focusing on direct, it can sound like, Oh my gosh, why are you reading into all that? That's, that's what we can hear from a, from a low context. Why are you reading into all that stuff? But somebody from a high context is like, I'm not reading into it. This is literally what that type of thing communicates.

And so my, my background is in communication. That's what I hold my first degree in. And that whole study of nonverbal communication is huge because the vast majority of the communication we do is nonverbal.

But the key with cross cultural is that different nonverbal signals. mean different things like eye contact in some cultures. In American context, eye contact is huge. It means that like I'm present. It means that I'm with you. It means that I'm respecting you, but to stare somebody else in the eyes in a different cultural context is like 

[00:27:43] I'Ching Thomas: Rude. 

[00:27:44] Stephanie Gutierrez: rude.

[00:27:46] I'Ching Thomas: Yep.

[00:27:47] Stephanie Gutierrez: So just cause you know what it means in your culture doesn't mean you know what it means in somebody else's. 

[00:27:52] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:27:54] Stephanie Gutierrez:  Let's talk about trust for a second. So I, you mentioned trust earlier, and as we are trying to create trust with one another in teams, what are some, uh, ways that we can build trust when initially there's so much misunderstanding and confusion around communication? 

[00:28:17] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah. Well, I think if we prepare ourselves going into a setting where you will be part of a cross cultural team, if we go in with this posture of humility, openness to learning and listening, willingness to step out of our comfort zone to, for the other person, you know, I think if we, If we go in with that posture, I think we're already half of the battle is already won, right?

Um, and of course, trust takes time, you know, and and I think again, I'm speaking of this, uh, from really, um, from my cultural perspective, right? Um, some cultures would say, you know, trust is earned, you know, some cultures say trust is bestowed on a person. Right, depending on your status, right? So if you were just to ask me in general about building trust, I think it's just spending time building relationships. Ultimately, that's what it is.

And it's biblical if you look at the scripture in the Gospels. I mean look at how Jesus builds trust with you know with his disciples, right? And look at how the disciples build trust with each other. You know, um, I think time doing life together, uh, is another thing, you know, again, back to what I said, we're not merely workers on the same team, you know, we are part of an eternal family. You know, that means, like it or not, you, we have to suffer through each other,, so to speak. But yeah, spending life doing things together, you know, doing life, uh, and it because it's not just about the work, right?

So, um, I don't know whether this would be a good example but I lead a team that, um, currently I lead a team, and these are, you know, mid to high level leaders, directors. all very opinionated, strong characters, strong personalities, all from different cultures, you know, uh, the six of the six of us. And it's just interesting to see and we've journeyed together now. I started leading them two years ago and I've just seen how we journey together as a team. Um, and it hasn't been easy, you know, because everyone went into the team and just, again, like I said, everyone is so…they’re all leaders in their own right. They're leading teams themselves and everyone is an alpha leader. So coming together and with the cultural aspect in there as well. So it's been a joy to see how they've sort of you know grown and journeyed together and some of the things that I did was just basically, let’s learn about culture together.

So we did a cultural intelligence quick test assessment together and then we looked at what our profiles are and then we debriefed and looked at how we can work with each other better so that was one of the things that we did and it was interesting because when we had the debrief and we're like oh that's why you're like…you responded to this situation that way.

So it was very enlightening, you know, and that was really good. And then, of course, we rebuilt in, um, uh, activities, team building activities that have cultural elements. So recently, we were meeting as a team for a week of meetings, and one of the evenings, I say, Let's cook together. 

So the place that we were meeting at had a kitchen, and so we say, come in mind with in mind, you know, bringing a recipe that with a cultural story that, you know, maybe it's a comfort food, you know, come together and cook together. And as we cook together we can talk about what is this they're cooking and what, what stories come with it when you cook this, what comes to mind, why are you doing this?

And, um, unfortunately, I had to miss that meeting because of a family emergency, but the feedback I got was it was fabulous. Everybody loved that part. They felt like they saw each other in a different light. And, you know, and then after that they ate together eating together, again, very biblical, feasting, you know, come to the table and, and it was beautiful to see that. So this, this could be some activities that you, you know, have to build team and along with it, build trust and build understanding, but ultimately, trust just takes time, you know, and, wanting to build trust has to come from, it has to be mutual.

[00:33:15] Stephanie Gutierrez: Hmm. Yeah. Those are great suggestions. I love the meal one because it's so accessible. Anybody can do it. And I think back to, you know, our time serving in Peru and some of our favorite moments were gathered around the table. There's nothing like eating together and the idea of everybody preparing something. What a cool way to learn about each other's culture. And like you said, choosing something that's associated with a story. You also mentioned the Cultural Intelligence Assessment. Is that, is there a particular one that you would recommend for people who are listening who's, it caught their ear? 

[00:33:51] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, so, uh, I got certified with the CQ Institute, um, so if you just google CQ Institute, or I can send you the link, you know, uh, they do great work, um, with regards to working teams, with teams that are cross cultural. They've been around for a long time, and they do a lot of work with corporations and, uh, non profit as well. So I, I got certified through them and a lot of the assessments that we use also, um, are from them.

[00:34:22] Stephanie Gutierrez: That's great. So when people, if somebody wanted to work through that with their team, do they need to contact somebody who's been trained in it to take their team through it? Or is there just like an online test they can take? 

[00:34:33] I'Ching Thomas: No, uh, it's, you preferably find someone who's certified because, you know, um, in order to use the material for assessment, you need to be certified. Um, and there are a lot of people who have been certified and I think you can contact some of the people who are certified to do that on, on their website.

[00:34:52] Stephanie Gutierrez: Okay. And is that something that you provide in your role? Yeah, I was going to say, is that something, can people reach out to you? 

[00:34:58] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'll be happy to do it because it's fun for me, you know. 

[00:35:04] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah, I wanted to ask before I put it out there, because I know how full your plate is. You're traveling all the time. So, but yeah, if that's, if that's a resource people could reach out to you about, that's,

[00:35:15] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:35:16] Stephanie Gutierrez: it sounds really fun. I'm super glad that you mentioned it. 

So, okay, another question that came to mind, um, as you were talking is, We're, we're wanting to honor the unique backgrounds and, and individual or the cultures that people bring in. But then there is this whole team unity you need to have as well. How are leaders able to honor people as individuals, personality, culture, generation, but then also bring people together and build a strong team culture? What would be your perspective as a leader? 

[00:35:55] I'Ching Thomas: I think when people come together again, you know, back to, if we start right, you know, with that bringing that posture of humility. The posture of willingness to learn and step outside of our comfort zone. I think as we approach team life that way, naturally a culture would be cultivated.

I've seen that happen. Um, because I get, I guess, team culture is not something that you, it is very organic. You know, uh, it, it happens. It just happens, right? Uh, of course we can be intentional, uh, about the kind of culture we want to cultivate. And I think, you know, as followers of Jesus, you know, we want to create a culture where, uh, we recognize that it's the Holy Spirit who binds us together and unites us.

And another thing I think that we do want to be intentional and, um, uh, I, I feel like we don't do enough of is praying together. I think praying together, uh, brings something to our team culture and team life, you know. Because I think praying together is not just about picking the box that we have prayed, but it's being vulnerable before God in, you know, together. What else?

[00:37:30] Stephanie Gutierrez: more into the praying together. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking people have all different ways of praying. So even that could be fascinating. I mean, again, different denominations, personalities, cultures. I mean, what would that even look like to bring a whole bunch of different people from all over together to pray in the same space and to see what that looked like? It'd be really eyeopening and fascinating. Enriching. 

[00:37:55] I'Ching Thomas: Yeah, absolutely. It's just beautiful. And, and, you know, one of the things that, um, I remember we used to do when I was in Turkey, uh, I was part of a team. I wasn't leading a team then, was that everyone sort of got the opportunity to lead the prayer meeting according to how you want to lead it.

So, and there was also intentionality and you don't have to pray just in English. you can pray in your mother tongue, and that just, you know, opens up this, you know, this, this new dimension to prayer, to a prayer meeting. Because I think in many contexts, English is the team language and, and by default, you pray in English.

If you give the freedom to those whose language, first language is mother tongue is not English, to pray in their native language. It's just beautiful and it's just completely different. 

I was in Lausanne recently and I was part of a table where, um, most on the table spoke English, not all first language, but still spoke English quite fluently except for one brother. And I realized every time when we pray together, he wouldn't pray, you know, and, uh, or when he did, you know, he very short prayer, you know, kind of thing. And so I suggest that I say, hey, brother, you know, why don't you pray in this language? You know, I didn't even say pray in our own native language, because sometimes there's a shame on our culture. We don't want to, you know, um, it's a shame that I cannot speak English, you know, that kind of thing. 

[00:39:43] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah. 

[00:39:44] I'Ching Thomas: I asked this brother, I say, can you please pray for us for this and your language, you know, and he prayed and, and it was just completely different, you know, he was just praying verbally.

And of course, I understood that language too. I knew what he was praying. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know, it's just so, it's almost like you're unleashing this, you know, this freedom for this person, uh, to pray, so intentionality and paying attention to these things. 

And, um, and this is a point that I should have brought up earlier, but I forgot, is, um, when a cross cultural team work together and when they have meetings, uh, it's also giving those who, um, who perhaps take a little longer or may not feel like they want to speak up to speak up by asking them.

Uh, there are some cultures where they don't, wouldn't speak up because they are afraid. The shame honor cultures, they're afraid the ideas or what they say doesn't make sense or they don't feel like they can articulate it in English, you know. So one of the things that we do is we specifically ask, what do you think, John, you know, of this, you know, because often those who speak English really well, you know, all the extra words would be hogging the conversation, right? Uh, so intentionally asking those. 

So let me give you an example of what we do in OM. Um, we have every year, we have what we, uh, the global leaders meeting, you know, and leaders from around the world would come together. And often when we have major strategic discussions, we found that the ones who make comments, who ask questions, uh, mostly the ones who are Western because there are lot of them. English is their first or second language, and they just have no, um, they don't have a problem speaking up or asking questions directly.

But then, often, it's one of, or it's a minority, you know, who's speaking up and who gets heard, whereas the majority, which, you know, is, is the case in, in OM right now, majority of our workers are from the majority world. You don't hear from them, you know, uh, so what we did was we use technology, we use Slido as, you know, and there are many different software out there, where we ask them, ask your questions through this app instead, you know.

And it just completely changed things and it was just so much more equitable, you know, in terms of getting voices into the conversation and discussion. So just, it's just little things like that, paying attention to things like that, being intentional, you know, that makes a lot of difference. 

[00:42:35] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yeah, what a great suggestion because it is, you want to make sure every voice is valued, but to your point, not everyone is used to being able to speak up or feeling like they can say something without being called on. So, and, and that would make sense to a Western thinker because we know a good leader knows to do that with introverts. So if you could just apply that same thing to people from other cultures.

Yeah. And just draw people out. That's so good. Cause you're right. The loudest people don't always have the best ideas. Sometimes they might, but they sure don't always. And a lot of times those quieter people are the deep wells and they have really profound things to say.

So, uh, Yeah. okay. That was a great, that was a great note to end on. I'm really glad that you, you brought that up. I want to let people know, uh, how to get ahold of you. I know you're an author, so I'd love for you to mention your book and any other resources or places where people can connect with you, I Ching. 

[00:43:33] I'Ching Thomas: Yes, I have written a book. I've contributed to different books on different things, but my book is not about working in a cross cultural team, but it's really about contextualizing the gospel. Growing up in as ethnic Chinese Malaysian, you know, there was this big perception, um, that Christianity is a Western religion, you know, therefore it's not for us.

And so as I became a follower of Jesus, I realized this is a huge hurdle, not just for people of Chinese ethnic background, but for many parts of the global South world. That's the perception of Christianity, of the gospel and the Christian faith. So looking into my own life, looking into my own background and culture, I, you know, I, um, decided to, um, look at what are some of the similarities?

What are some of the similar values that we share, you know, between the biblical faith and, you know, my cultural background? And what are some of the things that we value that the gospel speaks into? So this book is about that. It’s Jesus: The Path to Human Flourishing: The Gospel for the Cultural Chinese and you can find it on Amazon.

[00:44:50] Stephanie Gutierrez: Yes. We'll share all those resources and ways for people to get ahold of you in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I know how, again, how much you travel and how much you do. It was wonderful. So, uh, we're just, I'm excited for our missionaries to get to listen in and hear all that you had to say. So thank you so much for coming on today, I Ching.